If you've got understeer can't you just pull up the handbrake and force oversteer (dodgy on the roads i know but just a thought..).

gotta agree with what's previously been said, New tyres on the rear... understeer is safer than oversteer (well it is to me anyway).. especially down country lanes when you've got a second to react!

pulling the handbrake could cause a 4 wheel drift which you will not be in control of. pulling the handbrake is not a good way to quell understeer. i have a tendancy to trail brake aiding turn in and changes the stance to neutral/oversteer on turn in nicely.

I don't wanna sound stupid but whats trail brake?

Firstly, pulling on the h/b will not cause a 4-wheel drift; it will cause a rear wheel skid (if you lock the wheels).

Secondly, trail braking is braking gently but continually through your turn-in point, probably up to your apex, and possibly til your vanishing point starts opening out.

Actually, I'd suggest that posts #16 to #19 inclusive (yes I mean this one) are more in the realm of "advanced driving techniques", so if a Mod could move them please...?

Great, thanks for that whoever.

hmm i think you'll find if you try using the hand brake to compensate for understeer you either end up facing the way you came or into the nearest hedge

my understanding of left foot braking was to change the weight distribution to the front of the car and let the rear end go light, lock the wheels slightly and control it?

not really needed in my vRS though, give the brakes a quickly stab just as your turning in and you get a nice bit of lift off oversteer thats very controllable which actually seems to be assisted by having the ESP switched on.

Trail braking can be done right footed; in fact the places I usually do it are all places where the corner actively tightens up on you (radius tightens as measured by need to increase lock when you go in well below the limit).

That said, I agree with the concept of a stab to pre-load the front suspension and increase turn-in. It doesn't actually cause an over-steer skid though; just makes the front end react faster because the OSF corner doesn't spend time compressing before it starts turning.

Hand brake is a total no no.

Trail braking is the best way, right footed (unless you're already used to left footing) no more than half pedal then off before the apex, cover throttle then start to feed power through apex.

Also it sounds wierd but start to steer half a second to second earlier but a bit slower, I have recently been teaching this technique to Millbrook test drivers and it totally revolutionised some of their handling circuit lap times, because a slower turn in helps to reduce turning shock to tyre and therefore less likely to understeer in the first place.

Best thing to do is barrell into a corner far to fast, get a decent amount of understeer, then let off the throttle, tap the brake pedal, let go of the steering wheel and leave it to fate.

Do it right and you end up with a lovely view where the sky turns a tarmac colour and the road goes a lovely blue.

Best thing to do is barrell into a corner far to fast, get a decent amount of understeer, then let off the throttle, tap the brake pedal, let go of the steering wheel and leave it to fate.

Do it right and you end up with a lovely view where the sky turns a tarmac colour and the road goes a lovely blue.

:rofl::rofl:

If you've got understeer can't you just pull up the handbrake and force oversteer (dodgy on the roads i know but just a thought..).

It is a technique and it can work, however, I'd probably not want to trust my life to it Best just adjust your inputs to remove the cause and go from there.

gotta agree with what's previously been said, New tyres on the rear... understeer is safer than oversteer (well it is to me anyway).. especially down country lanes when you've got a second to react!

Although if you want to get out of trouble, I'd argue that in a FWD car you want to be able to a) steer and apply power so I always prefer to put the best tyres on the front. If the front has traction it will pull the rear in the direction the front is going

Either way if you're regularly getting understeer/oversteer chances are some alternative cornering techniques may be beneficial

Chris

Having recently had my handbrake pulled for me, mid-turn and at the limit of traction, I can inform you that it will be accompanied by a little voice in your head reporting that, "Maverick's in a flat spin! He's heading out to sea!"

The trail braking logic is that braking increases the weight on the front tyres, therefore improving traction and countering understeer. Of course heel-and-to would be the way to go ideally, by the FBW system kills the throttle when the brakes are applied...

The trail braking logic is that braking increases the weight on the front tyres, therefore improving traction and countering understeer. Of course heel-and-to would be the way to go ideally, by the FBW system kills the throttle when the brakes are applied...

Left foot braking, Shirley?

I'm not sure trail braking is really applicable if you're already suffering understeer and is more a technique to transition between braking into a corner and accelerating out and you need to ensure that transition is nice and smooth or you'll be encouraging oversteer. An interesting rally driving technique I saw used was to keep your foot planted on the accelerator as you approach a corner and then introduce some braking force with your left foot to manage the weight transfer within the car and control entry (and exit) speed.

Alternatively, for most corners you can just ease off the gas, let the car sort itself out, and then get back on the power when your tyres are gripping again (a little oversteer can help tighten the line out of the corner). Just remember to keep looking at where you want the car to go

Chris

Left foot braking, Shirley?

Yes, absolutely - you can tell I'm new to this advanced driving lark...

I'm not sure trail braking is really applicable if you're already suffering understeer and is more a technique to transition between braking into a corner and accelerating out and you need to ensure that transition is nice and smooth or you'll be encouraging oversteer. An interesting rally driving technique I saw used was to keep your foot planted on the accelerator as you approach a corner and then introduce some braking force with your left foot to manage the weight transfer within the car and control entry (and exit) speed.

Good point. The power-on-all-the-time is very handy for karting - which I guess is where most racing and maybe also rally drivers start out...

Alternatively, for most corners you can just ease off the gas, let the car sort itself out, and then get back on the power when your tyres are gripping again (a little oversteer can help tighten the line out of the corner). Just remember to keep looking at where you want the car to go

Chris

TBH, I wouldn't do anything other than get off the gas for an understeer situation - just beware that if you've lots of lock applied, you could end up in pseudo-oversteer territory when you regain grip... :eek: As I found out the other week, just letting go of the wheel can help the car find which way is up (forwards?) I wouldn't want to do that on the public highway though...

TBH, I wouldn't do anything other than get off the gas for an understeer situation - just beware that if you've lots of lock applied, you could end up in pseudo-oversteer territory when you regain grip... :eek:

There's nothing pseudo about lift-off oversteer, well except that the car can sometimes pull itself straight again if the back's fairly light and it's not super-short wheelbase (hence why a Pug 309 GTi handled better on the limit than a the 205 did).

Well no, what I meant was that if you were understeering badly and had lots of lock applied, you'd head off in the direction the front wheels were pointing once they regained grip. Not really oversteer as the rear wheels aren't breaking traction, but would make for an interesting sensation...

Well no, what I meant was that if you were understeering badly and had lots of lock applied, you'd head off in the direction the front wheels were pointing once they regained grip. Not really oversteer as the rear wheels aren't breaking traction, but would make for an interesting sensation...

Ah, we're at cross purposes.

I've seen it happen that the lift-off causes the back wheels to slide (oversteer, nothing pseudo about it). Yes, if you just lift off enough for the front to bite, the front is going to head the way the fronts are pointing when they bite. that's not certain if the backs are sliding!

The one thing to remember is that all this is a bit irrelevant unless you have been caught out by a corner you weren't expecting, because the easiest, quickest and safest way to drive a curvy road is to adopt the "slow in, fast out" principle, turn in a touch later at a speed that allows you to turn in with out scrubbing the tyres (or under/oversteering), aim for a later apex and then early on the power for a faster exit. Drivers i've been teaching this to on a handling circuit were exiting each corner up to 6mph faster using that technique, imagine how much quicker you'd be if you showed that improvement on every corner, plus your tyres will last longer 'cos your not scrubbing them constantly.

The one thing to remember is that all this is a bit irrelevant unless you have been caught out by a corner you weren't expecting, because the easiest, quickest and safest way to drive a curvy road is to adopt the "slow in, fast out" principle, turn in a touch later at a speed that allows you to turn in with out scrubbing the tyres (or under/oversteering), aim for a later apex and then early on the power for a faster exit. Drivers i've been teaching this to on a handling circuit were exiting each corner up to 6mph faster using that technique, imagine how much quicker you'd be if you showed that improvement on every corner, plus your tyres will last longer 'cos your not scrubbing them constantly.

Generally true, but if you read back up to post #7, you'll see that I only advocate using trail braking when you already know that the corner tightens up (faster than engine braking will slow you). I'm not advocating scrubby driving, and, unlike you I'm also not even implying getting on the power until your vanishing point starts opening up on the road.

Agree with your technique, Stuart. I've found (through a few coaching sessions) that if you brake slightly more than is necessary for the corner, you can actually get on the power at the entry to that corner and apply firm acceleration as you start to steer. This makes the car feel much more stable with less steering input being required and meaning you can unwind the steering that 1/2 second early too.

Kind of counter-intuitive, especially compared to what Roadcraft suggests. There was some telemetry that one of the chaps took comparing a variety of techniques through the same sequence of bends at Millbrook, but I can't find it any more :(

Chris

That makes sense in terms of dynamics, and for track driving. On the road it will just mean that you're going faster when your headlights point at that deer half-way over Rannoch Moor, pony in the New Forest...

The limit point is still the limit point............

Chris

Exactly my point; if you're slower at the turn in, then you'll be slower or at least no faster all the way through on a genuine vanishing point method, as long as the guy who turned in faster didn't overcook his entry and have to wait until the car stabilised before he could use power.

I see what you're saying, Ken, but I think you've summed it up at the end there. To maximise available grip through a corner you need to make the steering inputs as small as possible and the acceleration forces as big as possible. So applying power at the start of a corner means you are spending more of you £10 of grip on acceleration and getting some free turning force into the mix. The car is more stable and at the point where the limit point starts to run, the transition from firm power to full power is much less pronounced and much less unsettling to the car.

Of course, in some corners maximising available grip may not be an issue and you won't see any gains, but in others, it will pay dividends. I noticed it a lot in the Vauxhall Vivaro van I hired, especially when it was unladen and having some weight over the back wheels under cornering helped alot.

As with all things, YMMV

Chris