your mum may vary?

Generally true, but if you read back up to post #7, you'll see that I only advocate using trail braking when you already know that the corner tightens up (faster than engine braking will slow you). I'm not advocating scrubby driving, and, unlike you I'm also not even implying getting on the power until your vanishing point starts opening up on the road.

Ken, I don't think that my post suggested getting hard on the power before you know where the corner takes you, a "late" apex would imply that you know where the corner ends. Just for the record, my previous post wasn't aimed at you, it was a general comment.

Agree with your technique, Stuart. I've found (through a few coaching sessions) that if you brake slightly more than is necessary for the corner, you can actually get on the power at the entry to that corner and apply firm acceleration as you start to steer. This makes the car feel much more stable with less steering input being required and meaning you can unwind the steering that 1/2 second early too.

Kind of counter-intuitive, especially compared to what Roadcraft suggests. There was some telemetry that one of the chaps took comparing a variety of techniques through the same sequence of bends at Millbrook, but I can't find it any more :(

Chris

Thanks chris.:thumbup:

Ken, I don't think that my post suggested getting hard on the power before you know where the corner takes you, a "late" apex would imply that you know where the corner ends. Just for the record, my previous post wasn't aimed at you, it was a general comment.

Acceptd that it was meant as a general comment, and maybe unfortunately placed; no worries mate.

That said, I don't agree that seeing that you need a late apex implies that you know where the corner ends: All it implies to me is that you can see that it's tightening over a crest. Open Maps of the world, street map search - powered by Multimap follow the A737 to the very South edge of Dalry, and then follow the "white road" over to Saltcoats. There are a couple of examples of what I'm talking about on that road, and I should know; I was over it on a return trip as driver or passenger more less every week for 25 years, and still am sometimes.

Not sure I can follow the link you posted, Ken, so these are just some thoughts... If the corner is tightening would that suggest you haven't arrived at the apex yet?

Chris

Certainly if the corner's tightening you've not reached the apex yet, but that means it's a late apex surely?

I did the map on a scale that you should be able to find the road on; try zooming in and then scrolling along that road to get an idea how twisty it is. I can't think of any application that will show the ground contours properly along it though, not even Google Earth.

You could argue that bends that tighten have more than one apex. The limit point method works in all cases though.

Quarry at Castle Combe is a good example of a bend that it's best to brake as deep as possible into - getting on the power too early always makes you drift wide and feels more uncomfortable as a result, plus your exit speed will be lower than the guy who brakes later and harder, then cuts neatly across the apex.

Remember Sir Jackie when tutoring James May - "Never get on the power until you're sure you're not going to have to come off it again".

I'd just like to clarify my (and I think Chris's) interpretation of "powering through the corner", this doesn't mean balls out, flat to the floor power, it means finishing your braking, downchanging (if necessary) then using a steady part throttle to stabilise the car until the corner starts to open out, at which point you start to increase the amount of throttle in direct relation to decreasing the amount of steering lock so that you hit full power just as the wheels come straight, thus firing yourself out of the corner at greater speed with less drama.

Right Stewart; we've been talking at cross-purposes then. I agree with you now you've clarified.

This bend always gives me trouble, because the limit point when going South > North is precisely behind the damned A pillar, and shifting over in my seat to look through the side window just feels plain wrong. OTOH, even though I could probably go through the corner faster on a track with no oncoming traffic to worry about, I certainly wouldn't risk it on the public highway (especially as it's singletrack at that particular point... :eek: )

Ap0gee, you mean on the exit from the right hander (heading North)? If that's single track it's just modified the rule anyway, and you should be slow enough to stop in half the distance you can see clear.

Edited 13 August, 200817 yr by KenONeill

Yes, and yes; and on this occasion as you say it's safety rather than (lack of) ability or control that means I have to slow right down in that corner...

South to North doesn't look too bad as you have a nice view opening up just before the apex of the corner. Going North to South would present more problems though as limit point is more restricted and by the looks of the shadows on the road you'll also potentially be going from bright sunlight into darkness.

If you're having problems with the A-pillar you might find positioning the car deeper to the left on a right hander may help you overcome that, although on a single track road with little room for manoeuvre , I think you're going to have to do some ducking and diving! The joys of modern and "safe" cars

Chris

Presuming the scale to be right, heading South you can position well right on the entry to the left hander (I make the road here about 9 feet wide), but need to be moving left to take a position near the LH edge of the road around where you'd apex on a constant radius line, and then hold that left line until the vanishing point starts opening up through the right hander (road width opened out to maybe 14 feet) I think.

North > South is always at a crawl, not just because of the above but also because the trees mark the line of a small stream with shallow banks so the first apex is in a dip. But at least in that case it's geography rather than car design that limits how clearly I can see!

Chris, given where I live, would you agree I'm likely to have more experience of single-track roads than most?

I approach them from the viewpoint that you can normally use the whole width of the road as you would a wide lane on dual-track, up to the point where the road is signposted as "single track" but is actually some 12 to 14 feed wide, and hence wide enough for a car and truck to pass each other as long as they use the whole carriageway out to the white edge lines.

North > South is always at a crawl, not just because of the above but also because the trees mark the line of a small stream with shallow banks so the first apex is in a dip. But at least in that case it's geography rather than car design that limits how clearly I can see!

The dip doesn't come across in the aerial shot, which is partly why I use Multimap over Google Earth; GE doesn't always show the terrain detail enough for driving.

I approach them from the viewpoint that you can normally use the whole width of the road as you would a wide lane on dual-track, up to the point where the road is signposted as "single track" but is actually some 12 to 14 feed wide, and hence wide enough for a car and truck to pass each other as long as they use the whole carriageway out to the white edge lines.

Funnily enough I have a friend who I'm helping with her RoSPA advanced driving and I thought I'd test her with some challenging single track roads. You're spot on when you say you can use the full width of the road (IAM and RoSPA actually don't mind you "offsiding" if there's no paint on the road, but do if there is ) and the real key for me is in the positioning to see and be seen early. A lot of the single tracks around here have passing places cut out of the side of the road so it's imperative that you know you can get to the next one safely without the risk of conflict and having to back up to the last one. Not always easy to do, especially with the size of some of the vehicles using the road!

Funnily enough, we were discussing "progress" down these sort of roads and she commented that it was difficult to make progress because of the lack of vision and the number of corners. I asked her why she thought that and she talked me through her approach (IPSGA) and what we discovered was that she was dealing with the next corner well before it arrived so she was essentially wasting the straight bits by being off power. So we tried powering out of the corners and holding the power on until she felt she needed to deal with the next hazard/bend and things really improved, as well as making the drive flow and feel much better.

Chris

That all makes sense, although up here staying on the power until the next hazard can mean stopping accelerating at 60mph, and even sometimes using the larger passing places by trusting the other guy to keep moving, and steer at the right time, with a closing speed of 120mph!

...and even sometimes using the larger passing places by trusting the other guy to keep moving, and steer at the right time, with a closing speed of 120mph!

:eek:

That all makes sense, although up here staying on the power until the next hazard can mean stopping accelerating at 60mph, and even sometimes using the larger passing places by trusting the other guy to keep moving, and steer at the right time, with a closing speed of 120mph!

Hard to comment without an example, but would it be better to treat the oncoming car as the next hazard in the picture? Not sure I'd fancy relying on trust in those circumstances!

Chris

Hard to comment without an example, but would it be better to treat the oncoming car as the next hazard in the picture? Not sure I'd fancy relying on trust in those circumstances!

Chris

If you know the other guy, and they know you. It's entirely possible up here.

If you know the other guy, and they know you. It's entirely possible up here.

Index finger waving all-round is it?

If you know the other guy, and they know you. It's entirely possible up here.

And at what sort of distance can you identify the driver? :P

Chris

And at what sort of distance can you identify the driver? :P

Chris

Several hundred yards sometimes. Oh and according to the insurance industry head-on collisions are no more common hereabouts than anywhere else.