KU57 MLZ - Injector issues I think, No fault codes. Misfire/hesitation and Intermittent smoke. (Pic Heavy)

[amk2vr6]

Hello all,

 

Lots of knowledgeable people on here, so would be nice if I could pick your brains

 

I've just bought a 2007 PD TDI VRS. Reg is in Title for anyone that recognises it.

 

I got it cheap knowing it had a misfire, and as I dont get my license back for 8 weeks, something to work on in the mean time.

 

146k miles, FSH with injector recall done 20k miles ago. New clutch, Flywheel and Master and Slave cylinders. New Injector Loom a few months back too.

DPF delete and remapped, standard engine otherwise.

 

First off the symptoms -

 

• Most of the time it struggles to start. Once it has fired up it ticks over lovely and smooth for maybe 10 - 30 seconds. Then it starts to miss slightly. Revving it up it revs quickly and cleanly, and without a hitch. Engine visibly rocks, and can sometimes be felt through cabin too.
• Constant smell of unburnt diesel, feels almost strong enough to burn your eyes out! lol. However, visible smoke isn't constant and seems to come and go from the exhaust at tick over, and no noticeable change in engine note when smoke appears. No pattern to smoking either.
• Lack of power! Performance feels flat, and the engine struggles and stutters at higher revs under load. Turbo also whistles more than I'd like.

--> So far I have tried - 

 

Checking the fuel filter (bearing in mind it was replaced a few months back) and for any contamination in housing:

 

 

After about an hour -

 

 

Doesn't look too bad. I've definitely seen worse.

 

--> I then started to check measuring blocks on VCDS at idle:

 

 

After a quick rev, and a few seconds to settle:

 

 

I then went for a spin (someone else driving) down to the bottom of the road and back, and measured again -

 

 

Injector 3 always shows low voltage -

 

 

And switch time deviation (I have no idea what this is) -

 

 

And a quick Video that sort of shows the symptoms and turbo whistle (if you turn your speakers up really loud!)

 

Edited 3 May, 2014 by amk2vr6

[amk2vr6]

So...

 

I have a feeling there is a problem with cylinder/injector 3. I'd like to hope something as simple as seals, but I'd of thought the diesel would have looked a little darker... The previous owner got a garage to test fit some other injectors; and the car came with three spares in the boot.

Maybe they haven't used new bolts and seals? Of the three injectors in the boot, only one has the seals intact and not damaged.

 

 

One thing I didn't mention is I adjusted the rear cam a fart, and it sorted the starting issue. It now starts pretty much first turn of the key.

 

I turned this pulley a few mm clockwise and centred up the securing bolts in the holes -

 

Edited 3 May, 2014 by amk2vr6

[amk2vr6]

I think next port of call is to whip off the cam cover and check rockers, cams and tappets.

 

Does anyone have any input? Does the diesel look ok? Values on VCDS look iffy to me re. cylinder 3, can anyone else back me up?

 

Thanks, Tony.

Edited 3 May, 2014 by amk2vr6

[amk2vr6]

One more thing is I have a small log of the main values here - 

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aut99HzxTe_bdFBGdVEyQWNUM1Y0QkdIM1JaUHFIdkE&usp=sharing

 

The car has definitely been remapped as the ECU is asking for 2.5Bar of boost, and that works out at 21PSI! Although saying that, the specified and actual are actually quite close. Doubt there is a boost leak.

Edited 3 May, 2014 by amk2vr6

[amk2vr6]

Oh and I also blanked off EGR valve. No difference.

[ruffday]

Have you checked the Timing if you made it run better by adjusting 1 wheel it could be that the belt has jumped.

[amk2vr6]

Have you checked the Timing if you made it run better by adjusting 1 wheel it could be that the belt has jumped.

 

Thanks.

 

No I haven't yet. The car has done over 50k on this belt, so could do with changing really.

The only thing is surely the KW value would be miles out?

[amk2vr6]

Does anyone know, am I safe to reuse the injector clamp bolts and rocker bolts when I'm swapping around injectors, or do I need to buy a new set every time!

 

£22 a pop just to swap injectors around. Then to find it doesn't work, and I want to try the spares I've got instead at another £22! lol

[amk2vr6]

You can see the small amount of engine oil has risen to the top overnight.

 

 

Not a massive amount though. I have seen pics where the diesel is black!!

[amk2vr6]

Started to take the inlet manifold off, and noticed the bolt that sits inside the EGR housing thats hidden away was missing!

 

I found this when I got the manifold off - 

 

 

It looks to have been letting air in around cylinder 3?!?

[amk2vr6]

Got it all back together and started it up. It was misfiring worse than ever. A quick VCDS scan shows injector 1 voltage low. So I rechecked everything to notice where the wiring loom goes into the head the connector was half hanging out! I rotated it slightly and it chugged and just cut out.

 

I then unscrewed the connector, and pressed it back on firmly so it seated properly and took it for a spin. It drove so much better and the misfire had almost totally gone. Got to the bottom of the street to turn around and come back and it cut out and wouldn't restart! 

[amk2vr6]

146 views - 1 reply :(

[amk2vr6]

Just been down to the car to see if it would start (yes at this time of the night!)

 

Nope. Nothing. It cranks and cranks but wont fire.

 

Scanned with VCDS and I get the following -

Sunday,04,May,2014,00:21:25:32264
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.3
Data version: 20120401



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                Address 01: Engine       Labels: 03G-906-018-BMN.clb
Control Module Part Number: 03G 906 018 EL    HW: 03G 906 018 EL
  Component and/or Version: R4 2.0l PPD1.2 G    9953
           Software Coding: 0000072
            Work Shop Code: WSC 25014 551 00000
                      VCID: 73EFC11512AE091
2 Faults Found:

005734 - PD Unit Injector; Cylinder 1 (N240) 
               P1666 - 006 - Electrical Malfunction - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00000001
                    Fault Priority: 6
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 40
                    Mileage: 236323 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2000.00.00
                    Time: 09:03:03

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 832 /min
                    Torque: 80.0 Nm
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h
                    Battery Volts: 222.2 V
                    Battery Volts: 222.2 V
                    Voltage: 4.61 V
                    Temperature: 14.0°C

001649 - Cylinder 1 Glow Plug Circuit (Q10) 
               P0671 - 006 - Electrical Fault - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00000001
                    Fault Priority: 1
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 40
                    Mileage: 236323 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2000.00.00
                    Time: 09:04:32

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 768 /min
                    Torque: 80.0 Nm
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h
                        0.00 %
                    Voltage: 13.45 V
                    Bin. Bits: 10110000
                    Temperature: 22.0°C


Readiness: N/A

I then cleared the codes, and the bloody thing still wouldn't start. Its now staying in the culdesac at the start of our road until the morning.

 

Any ideas anyone?

[Bullit]

Mate I just don't know, you seem to be doing everything you can in trying to eliminate all the faults in order.

[JohnMcL7]

146 views - 1 reply :(

 

My apologies, I'm one of those people who have read your topic and unfortunately don't have anything I can contribute as the amount of expertise you need is clearly more than I have and I'm assuming most others who have read your posts.  Good luck in getting it all sorted.

 

John

[amk2vr6]

Cheers chaps. Nice to see some faces, it was getting awfully quiet in here! 

 

Feel free to pop by and just give me morale! 

 

I'm hoping someone can give me some advice though... I think next port of call is to check injector loom. Does anyone have an ECU pinout diagram?

Edited 4 May, 2014 by amk2vr6

[Turbobell]

Have you compression tested engine bud?

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[Turbobell]

Also have you got constant syncronization between cam/crank?

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[amk2vr6]

No I haven't yet. I've got a cheap compression tester, but not sure how to do it on the 16v engine as glow plugs are inside cam cover.

What do you mean by constant synchronisation? Surely its a constant unless belt slips?

Edited 4 May, 2014 by amk2vr6

[amk2vr6]

A quick write up on todays antics... you'll have to bear with me its a long post. I thought I had solved it, but NO! Im not that lucky.

 

First port of call was off with the Cam cover, and rocker assembly. (note the missing plunger - I pulled it out and it dropped down in to the engine bay around the steering rack. Whoops)

 

 

Inspect cams and rockers the best I can without removing any more to see everything looks ok.

 

 

 

Plungers and rocker tips look a bit worn, but these wern't very well adjusted, so it could have been that.

 

 

 

 

 

Remove Injector 3. (suspect injector postively deviating) Check hole to see if ovalled and it looks ok to me.

 

 

 

 

While I was messing around, I noticed how strange the DPF delete looks!!  It looks to be a two piece pipe shaped in an X. Any ideas if this is a homebrew or off the shelf bit of kit?

You can just about make out the bottom of it in these pics -

 

 

 

Injector 3. Some damage to side of piezo stack, and O-Ring with a couple of nicks. Was the correct part number of 03G130073T. Also replaced with one of 3 spares that came with the car.

 

 

 

When I was removing the injector I noticed I could rock it back and forth a bit before I had even tried to remove the bolts. I then found the bolts weren't even that tight in comparison to the others. And one of the bolts on injector 4 was chewed up indicating the bolts had been removed and reused a few times before. 

I put it back together paying attention not to overtighten the bolts. I didn't use a torque wrench or follow settings, but used my hand to get it just right. Last thing I wanted was to snap either of them!!

 

..............................................................................................................................................................................................................

 

Got it all back together, and after a few seconds cranking to get fuel back into the rail it fired into life and ticked over perfectly smooth and quiet!! I revved it up and it returned to idle without a hiccup.

 

I then scanned it again and got everything showing in spec.

 

It immediately started at this -

 

 

And after a second or two settled down to these values -

 

 

 

 

I thought I had sorted it!!

 

I then turned off the engine, phoned my mate and told him the good news. Went inside and made a cuppa etc. Come back out 15 mins later to start it up and it started misfiring and smoking!!! Bloody thing haha...

 

I then checked measuring blocks again and the deviation for cylinder 3 started to go out.

 

 

 

..............................................................................................................................................................................................................

 

Ok so...

 

There seems to be a sort of pattern to what happens.

 

The Blueish tinted smoke comes and goes. It also stinks of unburnt diesel at times, but this also comes and goes, and isn't always when it smokes. The injector deviation on cylinder three comes and goes. It is at its worst when it creeps up to and beyond 2mg/stroke, however this has nothing to do with the smoke. This can be made to happen by either just lightly prodding the accelerator so that it just blips the throttle a tiny bit, it will then stutter for a few seconds before going back to normal, OR you can make it happen by loading the engine at idle by dipping the clutch with your foot on the break as this video shows -

 

 

Yesterday when it cut out it was showing cylinder 1 injector and glow plug fault, however it is injector 3 showing as the culprit reading the measuring blocks.

 

This video is my mate taking it for a test drive (he has trade insurance). Not brilliant, but if you turn your speakers up you can just about hear it. Flat like turbo lag until about 2000rpm. Then a massive judder and shake upto about 3000rpm, then smooth power to the redline.

 

 

What to test next chaps??

 

Thanks for sticking with me here.

[m0bov]

Not sure but what about the fuel pump? Are u sure no3 injector is fitted withe a working loom? Can u get the remap deleted?

[amk2vr6]

Thanks for the reply.

 

My friend thinks it's an electronic problem the way it comes and goes.

 

Fuel pump is a possibility, do you know how to test?

 

And no mate, I'm not sure that the loom is working correctly either. I need to test that too, and if poss check resistance all the way back to the ECU. Do you know where I can find a pin out?

 

Thanks again for your help.

[Turbobell]

I mean that on these engines, cam and crank sensor deviation can cause all sorts of issues, the crank seal is part of engine timing. Disconnect cam sensor and see if it runs any better. Whenever I have had a crank sensor issue with this engine regarding running faults, it doesn't flag a code, but hard starting, over fuel, misfire and cut outs can all be symptoms. Remember that a cutout is a total starvation of one of the three key ingredients for diesel combustion.

Air, fuel, compression.

Obviously compression will be a relative constant, so this would probably not be the cause of an intermittent fault.

Air, aside from the usual throttle flap, intake flap, or erg issues which I see you've already resolved, the only other thing I would suggest is a thorough check on vacuum hoses.

Fuel, looking at the video mate, I really do think engine timing either mechanical or sensor is incorrect. This will result in incorrect signal to injectors, incorrect on time etc..

Also, at different temps, throttle loads, you may find the engine will be switching constantly between open and closed loop operation, this will probably be masking some of the issues in different conditions under road test. Would also explain why it runs great for a while until warm.

Just an oddball mate, haven't spotted wether you've done any maf diagnosis?

Hope any of that helps, Dale

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[Turbobell]

Low pressure pump diagnosis is very straightforward, take out fuel pump fuse, run multimeter in series switched to amps, looking for around 7 Amps of draw constant. Low draw, faulty wiring, pump impeller broken, low fuel level. High draw, seized pump, short circuit in wiring

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[amk2vr6]

Hi Turbobell, thanks again for your input!

 

I mean that on these engines, cam and crank sensor deviation can cause all sorts of issues, the crank seal is part of engine timing. Disconnect cam sensor and see if it runs any better. Whenever I have had a crank sensor issue with this engine regarding running faults, it doesn't flag a code, but hard starting, over fuel, misfire and cut outs can all be symptoms. Remember that a cutout is a total starvation of one of the three key ingredients for diesel combustion.

Air, fuel, compression.

Obviously compression will be a relative constant, so this would probably not be the cause of an intermittent fault.

Air, aside from the usual throttle flap, intake flap, or erg issues which I see you've already resolved, the only other thing I would suggest is a thorough check on vacuum hoses.

Fuel, looking at the video mate, I really do think engine timing either mechanical or sensor is incorrect. This will result in incorrect signal to injectors, incorrect on time etc..

Also, at different temps, throttle loads, you may find the engine will be switching constantly between open and closed loop operation, this will probably be masking some of the issues in different conditions under road test. Would also explain why it runs great for a while until warm.

Just an oddball mate, haven't spotted wether you've done any maf diagnosis?

Hope any of that helps, Dale


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How do I diagnose the MAF? It reads around 480g/st at idle, but I've currently got the EGR blocked off so from my research this is about right. I have also disconnected the MAF and it is the same.

 

I have disconnected the Cam sensor and it made no difference although I only ran it for a short while.

 

A faulty Crank sensor is a possibility though. The reading could be fluctuating, and I know when they dont work the TDI engine wont start. It's the cam sensor that is used to check the position of the injectors to speed up the starting process and then as far as I am aware it isn't used while running. Is there any way of testing the Crank sensor or is it fit new and hope. I have heard they are a pig to change.

 

I have found this about the crank sensor -

 

"The signal from the engine speed sender allows the engine control unit to determine the speed of the engine and the exact position of the crankshaft. With this information, the quantity of injection and start of injection are calculated."

 

From here - http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_316.pdf

 

Low pressure pump diagnosis is very straightforward, take out fuel pump fuse, run multimeter in series switched to amps, looking for around 7 Amps of draw constant. Low draw, faulty wiring, pump impeller broken, low fuel level. High draw, seized pump, short circuit in wiring


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I will go out and check this in a moment.