max69vk

True, but unburnt fuel or oil burns white or blue in the exhaust system. Over fuelling that burns in the cylinders creates black soot which gets caught in the DPF On a separate note, I still can't believe they couldn't find the fault with you car!

First thing to do is get the car on VCDS and scan it to check for any faults. Asking you to check for black smoke at startup on a car fitted with a DPF is a joke, it's the whole point of the DPF to catch that soot! If nothing has come up after a scan & VCDS doesnt show any major injector malfunctions or inbalance there are a couple more things to check. If you are a fairly competant mechanic or know someone who is, you can check a few things. Firstly, turn the ignition on & off 3 times (till the glow plug light goes out) & then start the car. If it then fires ok, replace the glowplugs. If still doesn't, proceed to the following (worth checking anyway)... 1) What condition is your battery in? Have it tested when starting to see how it 'drops'. 2) What condition is your fuel filter in? If it's black, change it. 3) Check your tank pump filter/pickup isnt blocked or dirty. If it is, clean it. 4) Check your injector clearance/lash, for a full guide CLICK HERE Hope this helps.

Yep, 2.0 PD BMN engine

Take off your engine cover and have a look at the front L/H of the engine (just in front of the pulleys), you'll notice a solenoid a bit like the N75 & pipework going to an ac****or which appears to disappear behind the pulley & belts:- This is what connects to your inlet manifold flap & is what is used in conjunction with the EGR to 'kill' the engine smoothly. Check the valve is working & the vac lines are ok. See the pic below pointing out what I'm talking about * why cant I write a c t u a t o r without spaces?! lol

Spot on. Following the same incident with my engine the car goes back in next week for a replacement turbo (already had 2 sets of injectors & an entire top end) due to this exact issue. The lack of lubrication properties due to the 'watered' down oil has damaged the seals/bearings, which has in turn lead the turbo to now sound like a siren & leak oil from the exhaust side where it then burns & clogs the DPF unit. Even if the turbo wasn't leaking, the excessive crankcase pressure would still pour too much oil vapour through the engine which in turn then blocks the DPF. Now here's the additional issue... The main problem with the DPF is not soot blocking it, but ash. Soot can be burnt off, but ash still remains & it is this that clogs the DPF in the long run. With the addition of oil vapour/smoke pouring into the exhaust it combines with the ash forming a nasty substance that you've got no hope of removing, especially as the DPF is 'non-servicable' unit, If anyone has seen the pictures of blocked up EGR valves with the black crud everywhere, this is essentialy cooled down oil vapour & soot, now try to imagine hot oil vapour & ash which is a harder substance to deal with & you can see how much of a problem this is when its caught in the DPF.

Has the wastegate been checked? Not the turbo. The actual wastegate itself needs to be checked for smooth movement, movement at the correct vacuum, & no leaks.

Reading through this it sounds like your car is going into limp mode, the AA don't tend to pick up the fault as when you switch the ignition off & on again it resets itself. Chances are the limp mode is being caused by the vanes in the turbo being coked up & sticking, the actuator won't be able to open them up so the clicking you're hearing behind the dash is actually the N75 valve (solenoid) in the engine bay trying to operate the vacuum for the actuator. Lean over the back of the engine when it's cold and have a look at the turbo, you'll see a vacuum line going to something attached to the turbo, and a metal rod going from this to the turbo. This is the actuator rod. Reach down & move the actuator rod with your hand, it should move smoothly & reasonably easily, if not this confirms the vanes are sticking & the turbo needs cleaning (google 'innotec', it seems to work). If the actuator moves smoothly & freely trace the vacuum line back to the N75 valve (located at the back of the engine bay) and pull off the vacuum hose at the N75, suck on the vacuum line & you should see the actuator rod move, if it doesn't & you've managed to move the rod with your hand then this means there is either a hole in the vacuum line or the actuator is damaged internally.

Just for you Nick, hopefully it covers everything you need to see. Ignore the torsion value as it slipped a bit, I realised afterwards I'd left the heater on full whack!...

Guess you were the lucky one then, my 'Master-tech' had done several of these swaps, this was the same guy who handed me my keys back 4 times & told me there was nothing wrong... The same guy who didn't show his face when I proved he'd ballsed the job & damaged the cylinder head. 'Master-tech' means nothing more than they've been there longer than anyone else in my experience, it doesn't mean they're any better.

Sorry about this Nick, haven't managed to get the reading yet as the DPF warning has come on (twice) in the last 20 miles so it's thrown everything out (idle is still smooth though)! I'll be taking it for a damn good spanking later so hopefully I'll get you the info then

The easiest way to check if the seals are ok is for the garage to do a compression & leak test on each cylinder. If you've got access to VCDS have a look at the injector stabilization at idle, if one cylinder is showing +deviation while the other are showing -deviation then that is 99% your leaking cylinder. Had exactly the same issues with my Audi PD170 & presented the info to Audi UK... Which then resulted in them removing the head & inspecting it to find where one of the injectors wasn't fitted properly it had ovalled the hole where it sits causing the compression to leak down the side of the injector which then affected the oil lubrication channel in the head. Cue the diesel in the oil (with rising levels on the dipstick) & oil in the diesel (black fuel filter & horrific running). As it stands I've had a complete new top-end (inc injectors), cambelt + tensioners etc, torsion is 0.0 exactly & have had no more rising oil issues... However despite going into 2 seperate main dealers (over 5 times), the DPF warning has now been coming on almost every 100 miles & Im having turbo issues. This below might be of use to you (if you need a similar one for a free DPF replacement I have one too, from another PD170 owner)...

Even thinking about it 'position wise' the inlet manifold is at the front of the engine & the exhaust is at the rear, would be a bit weird to have the cams operating valves at the other side of the head. :p

Sounds a bit worrying. Front cam defo affects intake/inj timing (torsion on VCDS), this was what I initially adjusted to get 0.0 , I only adjusted the rear to suit as the position is meant to be identical (part of what the Cam-belt locking kit is meant to do).

I adjusted the intake/injection cam (this is the one that VCDS reads) at the front of the engine, & then adjusted the exhaust (rear cam) to suit. I dont think adjusting the rear cam really made that much difference (I fired it up without adjusting the rear) but as they are meant to be identical in position I moved it to suit.

I've already posted this in another thread but it may be of use here too... KBlackburn, what duty cycle are you measuring? At idle the EGR duty cycle can be up to 50% (which I was suprised at) & the N75 duty cycle is at around 85%. Depending on what engine you have & software update this can vary though.

Nick, tried replying to your other thread (and PM) but for some reason I couldn't get the site to work the last couple of days. Anyhow... I've adjusted my torsion to dead on 0.0 & tweaked the idle &RPM slightly (dropped by 20rpm) & its smooth as silk at idle! While I was there I tried various different degrees up to +/- 3 at which point it just wouldnt fire, at -2.4 (near where yours is) is was a bit of a pain to start & was fairly rough, the adjustment between 0 & +/-3 degrees was probably only 5mm from either extreme, which is tiny! I'll take some more screenshots for you tonight showing the same details as above, except I'll substitute group 010 for group 003 which will show the EGR values ( which I think could be more relevant).

Any progress with this? I've got my car back after the 2nd garage drained about .75 litres of overfilled oil the DPF seems to be behaving itself, the car is still gutless below 2000rpm, & the kick above is somewhat lacking still. I specifically asked them to check the timing & they've said its spot on when using their tools... Not very reassuring considering how well documented the timing issue is, this points to an issue with the manufacturing & use of their own tooling to do the job which appears to give a very wide variance when they change the belt. With regards to the lumpy I used VCDS adaption to tweak the idle rpm till I found its sweet spot, which more me meant dropping it from value 128 to 100 (approx 810 rpm to 790rpm).

Get in contact with Skoda UK & kick up big time, they will look into it further even if the garage refuses to. When the car came out the garage (on all occasions) did they give you a printed report to say what work had been done? Usually on the bottom of this printout it will say something along the lines of 'checked, car all ok', if you have these print outs & there is now blue smoke coming out you can say that A) the car hasn't been checked properly & B ) the work they have done has damaged the vehicle which will prompt Skoda UK to investigate further.

Cylinder 1 still looks a bit suspect to me, do you know if they've compression & leak tested the cylinders? As for the Torsion value, now I'm confused! The AC runs off a seperate belt so I've no idea how that could influence the torsion?! With the starting issue improved how was the general running of the engine? Did it still sound really rattley?

I feel your pain on that one. In answer to your question, the timing can be affected if the rocker assembly &/or injectors aren't fitted back correctly, the pressure that these units operate under is so great it has been found that it can actually lift the rocker assembly ever so slightly (if not tightened down correctly), in this case who's to say the rocker assembly wasn't just bolted back on without being adjusted to work with the new injectors (VAG themselves have revised the fitting instructions for rocker 'clearances' at least once before) so something wasn't right first time round. The injectors & rocker assembly are also meant to be secured with 'single use' stretch bolts, whether this is done or not is another matter entirely & I've never seen them listed on any of the report printouts I've been given of what’s been changed, & they've listed every other component (big or small) used. In my case I've only had my cambelt changed as a precautionary measure to prove that an 'older' cambelt had no influence on how the car was running following the recall work, so basically it’s another thing to cross off the list of potential causes despite how injection timing affects the running of the engine. Really it’s also proved that the 'Master-techs' working on the car weren't checking their work as they knew the measurement was out before they started, & was then even further out after they finished when it was given back to me. Some interesting reading here regarding Inj timing.... http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/multi/PD-adjust-Idle-TDI.htm And some good info from here from VAG themselves on the PD injector unit, which goes someway to show that how whilst the ECU controls the injection (from the crank sensor) how the cam can affect the injector timing (especially the ‘pilot’ phase from my investigations)... http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_352.pdf I'm now at a stage where I refuse to take the car back to the original garage (4 times is enough) or even communicate with them. AUDI UK have said themselves that they completely understand this & are now directing the car to a different dealership (same group however) as they want a fresh set of mechanics to look at it following all of the technical details I've provided from VCDS. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure I now have to make a claim through the small claims court to try & get back some of the £800+ spent on buying diagnostic equipment & having unnecessary work done on the car just to prove that it was the work they did they caused all of the issues, it just feels never ending :(

Hi Nick, hope you're having some more luck with getting your car sorted? Sounds like you & I are in exactly the same boat here so I thought I'd give you an update on what is going at my end & hopefully between the 2 of us we can get our cars fixed!... To be 100% clear on this, my car still does not run right & sounds terrible. The top end still sounds unbelievably rattley, especially under light throttle, the oil is still overfilled & apparently contaminated (I was told it had been changed & even had the book stamped by the garage). When driving the car last night I've noticed that to be able to pull away without stalling the engine or it spluttering it needs to be revved to around 1500rpm, where-as before I could easily pull away on engine tick-over (820rpm), yet another confirmation that the car has lost power. Here's the kicker... Scanning the car with VCDS brings up no fault codes More VCDS logging & got the results below, looks like cylinder 3 has an issue now! The car has previously been back & the whole top end was replaced due to a leak discovered on cylinder 4 which meant the injector wasnt sealing & was leaking diesel into the oil (& vice versa). Also noticed that they've managed to throw the cam timing out even further since fitting the new head & cambelt (shows as tosion value on the new readings & steering angle on the old)! Looking again at the injector deviation readings you posted above, cylinder 1 looks to be the issue, whether it be a leaking injector or damaged head it's not right at all. My latest readings (cyl 3 being compensated by all the other cylinders) My previous readings when cyl 4 was found to be leaking (group 013 bottom row)

Normal Torsion value should be 0.0-0.5 on these engines. The injector deviation looks well within limits (I believe 2.99 indicates a fault) although as close to 0 across all 4 is the ideal. Also if the timing is out then these measurements will also be out as the ECU is attempting to balance the fueling to smooth the engine. My car came back out of the garage for the 4th time on Saturday, they apparently found nothing in over 100 miles of road testing, yet 10 miles down the road the DPF is back on & after checking the oil level its overflowing again! I'm dealing with Audi UK now as the 'master' techs at the garage are clueless. I've logged loads of technical info off VCDS & it looks like turbo & DPF are shot, on top of the entire top end they previously replaced FOC. I'd get on to SKODA UK & kick up big time. *Edit - Ignore my comment above about 2.99 indicating a fault, I've since been informed that this is actually a failure & that +0.50 deviation can indicate an fault*

Its not actually the cam timing (not cam/valve timing) that needs adjusting, so there's no danger of engine damage. The PD injectors are controlled to inject by the ECU, however they are 'activated' by the rocker assembly that runs off the cam. When they remove the assembly to replace the injectors it doesn't go back 100% as it was when it came off (new parts installed/different tolerances of parts etc etc) & this is what can put the crank angle out. If you look on the cam pulleys you will see that they are held on by a central bolt but that they also have 3 other bolts which fit into slotted holes in the pulley. By loosening these 3 bolts & moving the pulleys very slightly (same direction) this is what adjusts the crank angle. Here's a good explanation of it all (even if its for a single pulley engine the principle is the same)... http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/multi/PD-adjust-Idle-TDI.htm

Forgot to ask if you had access to VCDS or Vag-Com? There is measurement in VCDS for KW (crank angle) that shows the physical injection to cam timing, Ideally this should be 0-0.5 degrees (although it can be higher & can vary due to belt stretch), this gets disturbed during the injector removal & refit, & amazingly ( or not so amazingly) VAG techs are clueless about it - This also affects starting & idling. There are various threads on it if you search Google

Hopefully they'll put the update details (version release) on the paperwork when I pick the car up tomorrow, seems to be a universal problem with this engine on all the SEAT, VW & AUDI forums.