Graham Butcher

The plain truth is, that we are not actually comparing apples with apples at the end of the day, you have stated your views and I have stated my views, neither of us are experts in this field and so we could just keep going back and forth with claim and counterclaim and until the time when BEVs are in the same situation as ICE vehicles are now and we have similar ages of them, we cannot accurately predict/know just how they will compare in the realms of this discussion so I'm not going to continue this to and fro with you as it is tedious and must be boring the pants of many others. Many of the questions you keep posing to me, you could always go and search for the answers your self, there are answers out there, but generally speaking newspapers are not a reliable source as they tend to blow things up out of proportion, use clickbait in order to get people to part with their money and buy a paper or take out an online subscription, they are a business and business just want your money. I take your point about plastic fuel tanks, but not all vehicles have them, many have steel tanks.

No, I have not assumed. 1. Is it not true that there are older petrol and diesel cars around and more of them than then there are BEV's and older vehicles will tend to have less maintenance done on them as the cost of said maintenance can often be higher than the vehicle's worth and also things tend to suffer from rot and fatigue due to old age, a stage that BEVs have yet to reach, therefore the comparisons and the assumptions in the article are flawed 2. I never indicated that BEV's fire would be spread like burning running fuel, they will spread the fire by way of the gases venting under high-pressure from the batteries at low level sideways. There are videos online of them doing this while in charging stations, and they tend to be parked closer than that in a typical carpark so very high chance of spreading to adjacent cars quicker than running fuel could spread it. Burning fuel, running around on the ground is even further aggravated by firemen trying to extinguish fires like the Luton one, using water, oil floats on water and thus spreads quicker and further. Foam is what is required, as it cuts the oxygen supply to the burning liquid fuel. BEV batteries generate their own oxygen so water or foam will have much of an impact on quelling them, but as they burn far hotter, steel structures will give way far quicker, and this I think will be discovered in the finding for the collapse of the Luton carpark like we all saw on TV. 3. I agree this is currently unproven. The Telsa claims are for road accidents, not actual fires and as the popularity of not just Telsa's but all BEVs rises, there will be more and more incidents of them catching fire and I have not suggested that they will catch fire in greater numbers then their ICE counterparts, just that BEVs are nowhere near the ages of ICE vehicles yet, so the effects of rust, rot and fatigue and DIY maintenance etc have not yet happened so we just do not know what the end results will be, so that comparison is flawed

Hardly rocket science, the real truth is that there are currently many times more ICE vehicles on the road than BEV's thats a fact. Alongside of that fact there are far more greatly aged ICE vehicles than BEV's. It will be some time yet before today's BEV's reach a comparable age, and so we really do not know how those BEV's will hold up over a similar time period. The other fact is that unless there is a rapid and universal reversal of current trends, BEVs will become more common on the roads and will make up the majority of vehicles in a few years time so the whole equation is then spun around and thus a fire in a similar situation to say the Luton carpark will be become far more deadly and common place, maybe not the actual fires but the end results and consequences will be dramatically increased and maybe loss of life as well. The article also highlights figures from USA saying that fires involving Tesla's are 11 times lower per mile than fires for petrol or diesel. What about the fact there are way more petrol and diesel cars then Tesla's on their roads? What other brands of BEV vehicles on the road? This is not in my view a well-rounded and balanced article at all and is designed to continue pushing the political narrative.

Hmm, thanks for this, it's strange how it seems that people with aircraft also seem to love cars and collect them. I have a friend who owns 2 spitfires and a P51 mustang, all are as original, even down to WW2 bullet hole patches, and he has in his hanger a small collection of cars all kept in cocoons with filtered forced air flow to keep them going rusty etc, many of them are in mint condition and worth a fortune today.

True. But sadly I know it will fail as I had missed the latest updates on the mods needed, so I'll have do those first and then I'll try it out.

Is he, by any chance, the person that kept writing into Top Gear complaining about their comments and constant destruction of the Marinas

While I was working for Crabtree Electrical, there was one colleague who had an Ital as his company and the thing would flood his passengers' footwell when it rained and the dealers could never where the water was getting into the car from. It was a standing joke among other car users in the company that he used to have a wooden apple box, lined with plastic bags, in his car so that his wife could keep her feet dry by placing them inside the box, this was in the 80s and I had Cortina MkV as my company car and I used to think that the box was a leg pull, until I saw the box myself and his car was clearly identified in the carpark as it nearly always had misted up windows. Yep, Top Gear slagged off many cars from all corners of the globe during the reign of the Trio, including Skoda's and Kia and yet they ironically ended up using a Kia Cee'd as their track car for the celebrity challenge spot.

Many thanks @Rooted for sharing these videos, the first one was the more informative and showed all the good points and bad points in my view, and for that person, the best option for him with most of his driving being local short trips around home, and he has plenty of time available and only 2 people the car is ideal, they already have another ICE Mini as the main car for long trips. That said however he also said the same things as the "Taycan" man, but without all the drama, and he is truly an independent, doing YT for his pleasure and to help others as with only 781 subscribers he is I doubt not likely to be monetised and if he was, only going to get pennies for his endeavours. Also, I found reading his comments section very enlightening. The "Taycan" man, he readily admits that he loves the quietness, smoothness of power delivery, regenerative braking, acceleration, and the instant torque available. Instead, he has become a target for EV owners. Has anyone even understood, that he was already a Porsche (ICE) man before getting his Taycan? His channel was the result of his disappointment with the actual realities of living with an EV compared to how it has been portrayed. His main gripe is that the infrastructure is insufficient and poorly maintained and that EV drivers are treated like 2nd class drivers in regard to protection from the elements etc and the pricing swings massively between suppliers and the need to have so many various account cards /APPs which also rely on network coverage which is also patchy. Yes, I do agree that there is a lot of click baiting going on, especially with "Taycan" man's thumbnails, but in reality that is no different to newspapers, magazines and many other well known and well respected businesses, but nowhere do I see the negative comments about those, it always seems to be totally reserved for those who have not yet brought into the whole EV ethos yet or those that have but have found out that it is not quite as promised. And those negative remarks are mostly from people who already are EV owners or users?

@wyx087 Did you ever have a Morris Marina? Thats another thing that the trio on Top Gear used to do, that was to berate the Marina and nearly always managed to drop a piano from a great height onto one as a long standing joke, just as they took the p**s out of Italian cars, slagged off all American cars, caravans and camping holidays etc, how did you feel about those?

I'll try and leave mine on for a while then and see if mine responds like yours.

I can also confirm this is true, my car also works in the same fashion and will often show a range between 650 to 680 miles after a fill up because of the cars previous results, on a car that is used more for short city drives, that initial range drops a significant amount and it is calculating based on what mpg you were getting before you filled up. I often can see the predicted range increasing as I drive on a reasonable drive, if the ones prior to filling were short city drives with low mpg figures being recorded. Sometimes I can reach my destination of that was roughly 35 miles away and the range indicated would read far more than it did when I left the forecourt, despite having just driven 35 miles. @J.R. I never realised that your car was a diesel, has id got the ECO setting where it gives you green score with green bars and green leaf? If it has I might send you PM as you might be able to solve something for me.

Or of course the famous Top Gear stating that all French cars self combust, BMW's grills looking like rabbits teeth etc, all lorry drivers were all fat because they eat at greasy transport cafes etc etc etc.!!!

Haha, a typo error, and of course I was referring to diesels, and it should read "not as good for the planet as was first thought", which of course I suspect that a man of your calibre, knew that was what I intended 😃

Are you sure that it is the TMC button and not TP? When I press TMC all I get is the right wide of the display going blank and no text updates ever arising. But on the other hand I do get the local and national radio traffic bulletins over the cars audio, but they do not interact with the SatNav unlike TMC would do if the traffic situation would impact on any route you were following on the SatNav.

I think the Top Gear statement was in fact a scripted joke and I think it was also mentioned batteries in your TV remote always need replacing, it was just humour that was all it was, deal with it.

Imagine if there was a internet forum around at the time when diesel powered cars became popular and there was a thread called "The truth about diesel cars", we all know now that they are as good for the planet as was first thought, and the same thing could be happening again in the future with electric motive power. I don't have a crystal ball, sadly.

All very true, but it was the trio that were credited with making the show a global success. Angela Ripon was an altogether different reason for watching, I think 😉

Top gear was one of my favourite TV programs, even my late Mum used to enjoy Top Gear, and she was not a car person at all, she just loved the chemistry that the trio had going on between them and the comedy side of things, especially their epic specials they used to do. What is wrong with having some entertainment, it was the BBC's biggest commercial success with it being sold to many other countries, so clearly others around the world also found it to be pretty compelling viewing. 👍 At the time of that remark regarding the leaf, that was the accepted belief on batteries, and in reality it was that far of the truth was it, batteries do degrade over time, and even quicker if people abuse them in the charging stakes. So if you need to be able to get really close to the maximum range from an EV, then you are going to have to replace the batteries sooner than someone who can accept that the range is going to drop a bit year-on-year, and that will also depend on your own personal finances and your actual usage of the car surely. Someone who only uses their car for local shopping trips etc will never have problems with dying range, as they will no doubt be the type who will plug it in to recharge again the moment they get back home with it.

I appreciate that, but it does not alter the facts, that they are independent, and have no links to either organisations who are want to promote anything either pro or anti-electric vehicles or have any sponsorship deals, what they are presenting is their own opinions, and while I do not agree with a lot of what they say, they are very entertaining in their own way. That is something I can respect, it is personal.

Oh good reasoning Doctor Watson, I never said or implied they portrayed the truth in fact I said and I quote "they don't have a commercial sponsor while I don't agree with everything they have to say, they are rather entertaining in their own way" Just how you can conclude that I said they are conveying truth is beyond me.🙄

What was the point of saying the above then if you now are claiming "guff"?

I think they look better because there is a total absence of other lights around. Mine also are impressive off road than they are on, and of course there is a total lack of reference points in order to gauge how far they are actually projecting.

The clue, is as @Rooted has said, in the name, they are 100% pro electric and Robert Llewellyn has already admitted the occasional sponsorship, the two that @Rooted and myself have referred to are at least fully independent.

@Rooted Yep, TBH I prefer these 2 because as you say, they don't have a commercial sponsor while I don't agree with everything they have to say, they are rather entertaining in their own way. Channels like Electric Classic Cars and the Fully Charged Show have a vested interest and therefore even more biased.

Hmm, try a 7/32 key instead, it is marginally bigger than a 5.5mm.