When looking at these "green" cars, you need to consider just how many miles you are going to cover. The price premium over a similarly specced normal model equates to a lot of fuel. Or you can get a much nicer set of seats or better spec for similar money and not worry too much about fuel if your mileage is not big.

Looking at the figures, for me, the Greenline is a possible, but the 1.4 and 1.9 Sports are equally possible. Higher running costs, yes,but higher residuals and a nicer place to be all day.

Chris

There is another school of thought, that regardless of the mileage you drive, reducing your co2 should be the priority. So it shouldn't just be a cost v payback calulation.

I suspect there will be more "eco " cars to follow over the years. I guess a diesel/electric hybrid will be the next thing.

The Mini diesel does look convincing bu t the price. low standard spec and small boot go against it. The stop/start engine facility where the engine cuts out if stationary must be one of the reasons it does so well in real life mpg conditions and it is still well powered to give a decent turn of speed.

Another car which isn't branded as eco as such is the Fiat Panda Diesel which basically has a very economical engine, but the reputation of the dealers on various surveys may give some concern.

The argument for the Greenline seems less less being in the same road tax group as the "ordinary" 1.4 tdi unless in gave genuinely better mpg, hence my original posting. Has anyone actually got one yet ?

Came close to getting one, but they weren't budging on price. Got a far better deal on a faba 2.

We have to be careful here about so called "greener" vehicles. The EC testing process for fuel economy is a fixed set of simulated driving conditions. Manufacturers optimise their car for these conditions to give them the "green" badge, but in the real world, these cars are probably no better than the equivlantly engined stock models in most everyday driving.

It is evident that the Mini is the most fuel efficient in everyday use from all that I have read. However, BMW / Mini brand makes no "green" claims for it other than stating its fuel consumption. The stop start system is one of the measures used to reduce emissions. Other stuff includes the PSA Group 1.6 variable valve timing technology 16v diesel engine. But most significantly, the car is small in frontal area terms and does not weigh as much relatively as the Fabia Greenline, so ultimately it should do better on fuel.

As for the priority being on CO2 as opposed to cost, the two go hand in hand as fuel is the biggest cost factor in the vehicle life equation these days. If you had to earn a living from the car, you would work it out on cost. With the Fabia range, the Greenline is a little better on fuel than say a 1.4 Sport, but have you seen the two interiors? Remember I have to live in the car up to 12 hours a day and I can tell you the seats in the Sport are a nice place to be long term, those in the lower models are much less comfortable. When it comes to selling on, the Sport is probably the more desirable car, so although you may use less fuel in the Greenline, the Sport is the nicer thing to own. The difference in CO2 emissions between the two is not going to make a significant difference to global warming, even if applied to every car worldwide. Green marketing is endemic, much of it BS. Al I want is something that does a lot of MPG and is comfortable enough to spend all day in and has a decent resale value.

Chris

Another car which isn't branded as eco as such is the Fiat Panda Diesel which basically has a very economical engine, but the reputation of the dealers on various surveys may give some concern.

I thought of getting a Fiat Panda, but the EuroNCAP results were very poor for it and so I ruled it out on that basis. The Fabia is much better on the safety front.

I thought of getting a Fiat Panda, but the EuroNCAP results were very poor for it and so I ruled it out on that basis. The Fabia is much better on the safety front.

The Fiat 500 Diesel is another possibility and at 980Kg is usefully lighter than the Fabia / Polo cars. Leaves more weight in your wallet too.

Chris

remember that the polo and ibiza are both smaller and are less practical than the 5 door furby. its the extra weight and hieght that knock it off the less than 100 co2's list.

but whats the point of being greener and buying the polo when you end up using the old mans big company car as theres not enough space in the polo!

remember too that its the only one fromt he 3 that has a estate version, all that space has to come at a loss, and for £35 quid per year i know i certainly wouldnt shy away from the fabia for that reason alone.

it is more expensice than the level 2 but you get the DPF, Front fog lights, side mouldings and the different wheels, tyres and suspension. that combined with the extra 8mpg over a combined cycle is all helpful, so i would say the price is pretty good really!

also the torque figures are the same as the normal 1.4tdi and it really is a typo

been out in one and round town theres really no difference. but on the motorways the longer gearing does make a difference, but i didnt find myself struggling with it.

overall, as a green option, its not overly priced, it has a nice spec and has all the spac that the others lack.

im just wondering how long it is before the greenline lower rubber valance starts appearing on normal fabias. as its bigger and imoa looks better than the standard one

Some good points yet I would have to say: Keep your grip-less slick tyres & hell no to the DogPoopF***!

I agree the front lower valance & 14mm suspension drop will likely find use in the VAG-OEM+ PQ25 modifying crowd...

Keep your grip-less slick tyres & hell no to the DogPoopF***!

pmsl!

pmsl!

Please spell out? not remembering this one...

The Fiat 500 Diesel is another possibility and at 980Kg is usefully lighter than the Fabia / Polo cars. Leaves more weight in your wallet too.

Chris

The golf bluemotion is only 35 quid road tax , that may be worth a look but a bit pricey at £15700 or thereabouts also for have release the focus econetic 1.6tdci 110 bhp (which whatcar really rates FWIW) which is a fair bit cheaper ..... looks like there will be tons of ecomentalist cars to follow soon .....

Chris; Had a look at the Fiat, it is not an option it is a two seater toy. I have seen in the motoring press it is seen as a challenge to the Mini. My wife has had the 'one' and is now on a 'Cooper'. It is n ot a challenge to that or least of all the Fabia. When you come to out a 500 it will worthless. much like the many other excellent (style & engines) Fiats.

Shame Skoda haven't put the 1.9 with DPF in the Fabia as I think that would be a far better car all round .... :confused:

The golf bluemotion is only 35 quid road tax , that may be worth a look but a bit pricey at £15700 or thereabouts also for have release the focus econetic 1.6tdci 110 bhp (which whatcar really rates FWIW) which is a fair bit cheaper ..... looks like there will be tons of ecomentalist cars to follow soon .....

At that price, the Mini makes a whole lot more sense being better on fuel, better to drive and having a better residual value.

Chris

I took delivery of a greenline estate on Wednesday. Now up to 120 Miles! Computer says I am averaging 70mpg, and on my 17 mile commute this morning (3 miles narrow hilly lanes, 10 miles A road at 50 mph, and 4 miles urban with traffic lights etc It said I managed 80MPG! I was driving carefully, but if this is correct it is a lot better than my Subaru WRX I traded in! Only problem is I am having to get used to the new image. Boy racer to eco warrior feels a bit odd.

Chris; Had a look at the Fiat, it is not an option it is a two seater toy. I have seen in the motoring press it is seen as a challenge to the Mini. My wife has had the 'one' and is now on a 'Cooper'. It is n ot a challenge to that or least of all the Fabia. When you come to out a 500 it will worthless. much like the many other excellent (style & engines) Fiats.

I agree, the 500 is not in the same league as the Mini, but is a sort of retro style exercise, like the Mini. It is significantly cheaper though. There is also some question over the warranty of the 500. As an instructor car, we need a nice long unlimited miles warranty. Fiat provide this in Europe, but as far as I understand, not in the UK. The European market (apart from us) gets a 5 year 500,000Km warranty for the 500.

You have to watch Fiat for the small print too. The Bravo allegedly has a 5 year unlimited miles warranty, but in fact has 3 year unlimited miles or 5 year 60,000 miles with the last two years being dealer.

Looking at Fiat from an instructors point of view, the obvious choice is the Grande Punto Sporting, which can be had for significantly less than I paid for my Fabia vRS 2 1/2 years ago, has similar performance and economy and comes with a good selection of kit. However, it drinks fuel like the Fabia vRS and with the way things are now, I cannot justify that sort of running cost (projected £7000 on fuel this year for the job alone). The smaller engined Puntos are better on fuel, but not especially good.

The Bravo with the 1.6 diesel was a contender on paper, but the rear 3/4 visibility is poor. Think of how much you see if you open your letterbox at arms length and look out of the slot, you will get the idea.

The 500 is probably a fine car for the job, with good economy and kit on the sporting diesel. However, the lads I teach may have insecurities about being taught in a girly car, so it is potentially not an option. Personally, I really like it though. :rubchin: Hmm, less blokes, more girls, maybe it is not a bad idea after all, as the girls learn better and all that;)

Biggest thing against all the Fiat range cars though, my local dealers attitude. I went into the showroom on Saturday afternoon and the salesman was just not bothered to sell me a car. If they are that lacklustre about selling a car, how good will they be about fixing it?

At the moment, my shortlist is looking to be coming down to a Fabia Sport (either engine but probably the 1.4 pd) and the Mini Cooper Diesel.

Reasonings so far here:

www.cbuckle.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Car Comparator.xls

I will keep this up to date as I develop it with cost analysis and projected resale value calculations.

Chris

At that price, the Mini makes a whole lot more sense being better on fuel, better to drive and having a better residual value.

Chris

But no good at all if you carry more than a Mars bar !! :thumbdwn:

I took delivery of a greenline estate on Wednesday. Now up to 120 Miles! Computer says I am averaging 70mpg, and on my 17 mile commute this morning (3 miles narrow hilly lanes, 10 miles A road at 50 mph, and 4 miles urban with traffic lights etc It said I managed 80MPG! I was driving carefully, but if this is correct it is a lot better than my Subaru WRX I traded in! Only problem is I am having to get used to the new image. Boy racer to eco warrior feels a bit odd.

Keep us up to date on how the fuel economy goes! It would be interesting to do a comparison between trip computer and actually filling up and calculating the economy as well, as some trips comps are known to be optimistic. Those figures on a tight new engine are very impressive.

Also, not an inline four pot engine, so some character to the sound.

Chris

But no good at all if you carry more than a Mars bar !! :thumbdwn:

Much like the Fiat in that respect. I think that if your primary concern is fuel economy, the less space you carry around, the better. The Mini rear seats are a joke unless your friends have no legs. However, compared to the Greenline or the 500 the Mini is a better economy / performance compromise and has the best dynamics by a huge margin. As a customer appeal car, it should be good too, bieng a clit' car. Speccing one up is harrowingly expensive though. All the stuff you get in the other cars costs on top for the Mini. Residuals help with this, selling a base model Mini is not as easy as one with an option pack for example and the residual value gained from the options should hold well.

Having a car from the driving school costs around £5350 a year, but includes servicing, tax, insurance and tyres. I work out cars on the basis that they cost me £3500 per year in depreciation. That is my acceptable limit to how much a car can cost me. So far the Fabia vRS has done 31 months, so owes me £3118 if I sell it now. By October, when I intend to change cars, it will owe me £1660. Given that it is running beautifully, performing excellently, uses almost no oil and apart from a little seat wear looking fresh inside, I reckon I should be able to sell it at a decent price even though it has 112,000miles on the clock now.

Given that I have had the pleasure of driving around in something so much better than the school would ever give me, I reckon to break even on cost by owning my own much better car is a good result. As a comparison, I had a Focus 1.8 petrol to teach in a while back, just for a couple of days. With this, I reckon my fuel bill would be over £11000 a year at current prices.

Chris

The Cooper d mpg is awesome. My wife has a year old petrol cooper (mk 2) and that must do 45mpg plus in general running which when hacking it around is very good. I do not agree about the rear seats for the odd journey with 4 adults the Mini is OK.

Just to throw a curve ball here, these eco cars are claiming serious mpg, and charging more for less in the car, it seems like you are paying extra for the word eco to be added to the car.

I have been closely monitoring "Real World MPG" thread on 2 sites in relation to my next car ( see sig below ), they are reporting back better mpg that what is being seen on the VAG eco cars. These are putting out over 60 mpg on diesel cars that are sub 15k miles and not yet properly run in.

I did look at these VAG alternatives, but in relation these do not appear good value for money, with mpg , tax and insurance included with the price.

Please spell out? not remembering this one...

P eeing

M y

S elf

L aughing

loved the comment about the slippery tyres

The Cooper d mpg is awesome. My wife has a year old petrol cooper (mk 2) and that must do 45mpg plus in general running which when hacking it around is very good. I do not agree about the rear seats for the odd journey with 4 adults the Mini is OK.

For me, when the driving seat is comfortable, there is literally nowhere for the passenger behind me to put their legs. A front seat passenger could move forward enough to make room for a third occupant I suppose.

Main downsides with the Mini are 1: Cost. 2: It is not a REAL Mini. I had a proper Mini back in the day and there was more passenger and luggage space in it than in the new one.

Chris

Just to throw a curve ball here, these eco cars are claiming serious mpg, and charging more for less in the car, it seems like you are paying extra for the word eco to be added to the car.

I have been closely monitoring "Real World MPG" thread on 2 sites in relation to my next car ( see sig below ), they are reporting back better mpg that what is being seen on the VAG eco cars. These are putting out over 60 mpg on diesel cars that are sub 15k miles and not yet properly run in.

I did look at these VAG alternatives, but in relation these do not appear good value for money, with mpg , tax and insurance included with the price.

Exactly the sort of thing I would expect. The 500 is lighter and uses a "latest technology" generation diesel engine, so I would expect it to be better on fuel in real world driving. Is yours going to be a petrol or diesel? Also, what warranty are they offering presently?

The Eco badged cars are obviously heavily optimised to make the best consumption figures in the official simulated economy tests. It would seem that the likes of the 500 and the Mini have gone for making the car best for real world driving and have not overly concerned themselves with hitting the optimum numbers.

A lot of the problem lies with the legislators. They design simulated tests that will represent the average behaviour of a car in average circumstances, then the manufacturers design their vehicles to perform best at these tests, sometimes I suspect, to the detriment of real world efficiency. Same sort of thing happened with bike exhausts for years. Overly stringent noise regs meant that bike manufacturers generally supplied bikes with a flat spot, just around the RPM where the noise results were tested. To counter this, the public just fit an aftermarket exhaust and the flat spot is gone. Noise is actually higher than the original manufacturer would have produced if they had been able to just make it without the regs.

I think it is important that we don't get too sucked in by the eco marketing. It is nice to have a car that does a lot of mpg, essential even, but I would not sacrifice safety (grip) or adequate performance (overly tall gearing) to eke out those last 50 miles per year. Looking at the Greenline, is is a pretty decent car, but I cannot help thinking that I would have the better seats in the Sport and lose a few mpg. If you drive a long way, these things are important. If you don't fuel consumption becomes much less important.

Chris

I’ve had my Fabia Greenline estate for two weeks now. It’s past 700km/435 miles and has the computer this far show an average of 64mpg. I live in Gothenburg and probably half of the miles are driven urban, usually at rush hour.

When driven to the cottage, 50km/31miles of witch a few km is urban, and the rest hilly country road with just a few traffic lights and roundabouts, the best this far is 83mpg – driving carefully. I’m quite pleased this far and hoping for even better figures in the future.

/Hik