Is Diesel Dead

['Little' John]

I think that trip computer errors are the source of those variations. Owners who believe the trip readings quote the high figures, whereas those who log fuel and mileage over an extended period quote figures not dissimilar to mine, ie currently 47.34mpg. The rule of thumb which works for my car is to deduct 25% from the trip reading to arrive at a realistic figure.

Hear, Hear! I was going to do a similar post myself, but thought that people might be fed up of me slagging off the trip computer since it's one of my pet hates.

[Orta]

For the next few years, until we get a realistic alternative (Bio-enthol is my bet) to our standard fuels, I think we'll just keep plodding along as we are. As long as there has been cars there's been slow economical ones and fast less economical ones. And there's always been people to buy both and there always will.

[Dr Zoidberg]

Is that an average of 25mpg one way and a return trip with the AA...? :rubchin:

Rob.

If you count the AA's part of the trip I actually got 114 MPG

[yegnold]

I think that trip computer errors are the source of those variations. Owners who believe the trip readings quote the high figures, whereas those who log fuel and mileage over an extended period quote figures not dissimilar to mine, ie currently 47.34mpg. The rule of thumb which works for my car is to deduct 25% from the trip reading to arrive at a realistic figure.

I hate to pi$$ on everyones bonfire but I've been logging my mileage/fuel usage for the past 30,000 miles in my VRS and have consistently averaged over 50mpg, and quite often have achieved over 52mpg... without driving particularly carefully.

It's probably got something to do with the fact that the shortest distance I ever tend to drive is 10 miles, and more often than not I do 30 mile each-way journeys, giving time for the engine to reach it's most efficient operating temperature. I am admittedly rarely stopped in traffic, either...

My trip computer can either under-estimate or over-estimate my fuel economy.

If I drive really carefully, the trip computer thinks I'm doing fewer mpg than I am.

If I drive faster (ie accelerate 30-60 as quickly as possible every time I enter NSL, etc), the trip computer thinks I'm doing more mpg than I am.

It's probably got something to do with how it's calculated?

[HotVRs]

We keep getting told this so I decided to do a comparison. Taking the official figures for the Octavia vRS (since there is no petrol Fabia vRS) I worked out what the cost of diesel would have to be to make it more expensive to run. Even with my low mileage (10k a year) I calculated that diesel would have to cost more than £1.50 a litre (assuming petrol at £1.12 a litre) for the diesel to become more expensive. Add in cheaper tax and insurance it's a no-brainer. OK diesels are more expensive to buy, but you will get more back when you sell them as well, so the difference in depreciation is actually fairly negligible.

Since diesel prices went mad, the retained value of diesel cars has dropped relative to petrol, so although you pay out more when new, you aren't now necessarilly going to recoup that when selling. I've never found insurance cheaper just because the car is a diesel per se, and diesel cars do not as an absolute rule have lower road tax. IF, the UK starts to measure particulate output and other pollutants rather than just CO2, diesel road tax (emission based) will be higher than now for most diesel cars. Remember as well, as I put in my post, WHEN the turbo goes it takes the best part of a thousand pounds worth of your fuel savings with it.

At current fuel prices (and diesel is predicted to continue to rise faster than petrol), I don't see diesel as sustainable for passenger vehicles unless the new vehicle price differential drops. The new breed of efficient petrols seem to be the thing to watch out for in the short to medium term, not just in cost, but also because many people just don't like diesels, and it takes a big saving to compensate for the smoke, clatter, vibration and other diesel negatives, and at the moment that big difference is no longer there.

[mannyo]

Down where I live, diesel has now stopped rising in price, instead the garages are now increasing the price of U/L. The price gap at one garage has has reduced by 5P a litre, and I predict this will continue.

[horkin]

Since diesel prices went mad, the retained value of diesel cars has dropped relative to petrol, so although you pay out more when new, you aren't now necessarilly going to recoup that when selling. I've never found insurance cheaper just because the car is a diesel per se, and diesel cars do not as an absolute rule have lower road tax. IF, the UK starts to measure particulate output and other pollutants rather than just CO2, diesel road tax (emission based) will be higher than now for most diesel cars. Remember as well, as I put in my post, WHEN the turbo goes it takes the best part of a thousand pounds worth of your fuel savings with it.

At current fuel prices (and diesel is predicted to continue to rise faster than petrol), I don't see diesel as sustainable for passenger vehicles unless the new vehicle price differential drops. The new breed of efficient petrols seem to be the thing to watch out for in the short to medium term, not just in cost, but also because many people just don't like diesels, and it takes a big saving to compensate for the smoke, clatter, vibration and other diesel negatives, and at the moment that big difference is no longer there.

You've certainly grasped the whole point of this thread. The guy who wrote the article on MSN did so because he felt exactly as you do. Whether you are right or not remains to be seen but I think diesel car owners should be aware, as they may ignore the situation at their peril. It's too late to act once residuals have gone through the floor. I'm certainly ready to jump ship if it gets any worse.

[HotVRs]

It'll be interesting to see how it turns out...I'm not too fussed with my Fabia because after 4 years I've recouped the initial outgoing costs, but am seriously regretting buying a diesel Toyota Verso last year instead of a duel fuel Zafira. When I see the tax levied on fuel I could happily plant my fist in gordon clown's head.

[Conshine]

I was actually refering to fuel. Maybe i'm being niave but all fuel comes from crude oil and differs only in the extent of refinement and additives that goes into the final product. As diesel fuel is less refined, isn't it actually 'cheaper' to produce?

Sort of....

You don't get as much diesel out of a barrel of crude than petrol, it's something like 9 gallons of diesel and 19 gallons of petrol per barrel coupled with the fact that the refining capabilities have not kept pace too, demand is up, just pushes the price up.

[Conshine]

No it can not be that, as the only ones to benefit of the higher prices of fuel is the Guberment and the oil companies

The manufacturers of the vehicles get nowt from fuel

Along with greed and the need to pay tanker drivers 41k py wages

Diesel is not as refined as petrol and thus cheaper to produce, basically we diesel users are been ripped off by the oil refineries

Just now the Guberment could reduce fuel duty to zero and still make 5Billion pounds extra per year from the VAT alone at the current price of oil per barrel

Or you could just shrug your sholders and be a tanker driver on 41kpy you could afford diesel, so long as you can drive an HGV

Specialist training is needed though, you Light a short fuse on a one gallon petrol container, and then RLF (Run like F ) those that make it are made for life

OH oh one problem unless your dad, uncle or first cousin is a tanker driver then I am afraid you will not pass the strict entry exam of been able to mark an X where the signature goes on the Application ( I was going to say neopitism neoop but I could not spell it)

National

The government actually get less revenue when the price goes up...

It is not cheaper, they put plenty of refining into it to get the sulpher etc out of it and coupled with the fact that there is not as much diesel in a barrel as petrol, so there will always be a shortfall here.

More & more of us are using diesel with just makes the supply/demand problem worse with the result being the increased cost at the pumps.

[Lady Elanore]

All this concern or the poor old diesel owner is very touching, but does this mean that previously we should have been patronising petrol owners as they had such ‘Expensive’ cars to run? Of course not, get over it guys. It seem many petrol owners are quietly hopping around with glee that their cars may be cheaper to run than diesels (well for low mileage drivers) but that is not necessarily the main point on here is it. Many of us have quick diesels, which we prefer to petrol cars because of the effortless feel of its performance and in many cases, superior real world performance to a petrol equivalent.

Thanks for the concern guys, but I fear your worries are generally misplaced.

[micmason123]

Well i get 60mpg average in my 1.9 tdi fabia.

Love the car...

Used to have a 1.6 Clio which at best i could get 35mpg, and thats with granny shifting.

Diesel is the way forward.

And still working out cheaper, even with the big difference in peterol and diesel costs.?!?!

michael

[Decron]

All this concern or the poor old diesel owner is very touching, but does this mean that previously we should have been patronising petrol owners as they had such ‘Expensive’ cars to run? Of course not, get over it guys. It seem many petrol owners are quietly hopping around with glee that their cars may be cheaper to run than diesels (well for low mileage drivers) but that is not necessarily the main point on here is it. Many of us have quick diesels, which we prefer to petrol cars because of the effortless feel of its performance and in many cases, superior real world performance to a petrol equivalent.

Thanks for the concern guys, but I fear your worries are generally misplaced.

Nice one. I may have been what I was trying to get at at the start of this thread but failed dismally at.

At the end of the day there isn't a lot you can do about any of anyway. Fuel will never come down to the levels we have been used to and it probably shouldn't. There are too many cars on the road and we have had it easy for far too long.

Something else to think about - It's all our own fault, you can blame the goverment but they are only a small part of it.

Why are oil prices so high? Demand (Along with specualtion but thats a whole new thread).

Where did that suddenly spring from? Emerging economies such as India and China where the money is filtering down to the masses who now all want cars.

How did this happen... Have a good think about this the next time you buy a cheap pair of jeans, trainers or any number of other goods.

Looks like we are paying a high price after all

[horkin]

Perhaps it's a good thing we are all noticing the price of fuel when we fill up. I like most, went for years just filling up and paying without a second glance. It can't hurt to be a bit more aware of the cost if it makes us more responsible? They main thng is, whatever car you drive, enjoy it.

[HotVRs]

Hmm...but cars have never been cheap to run in the UK, cheaper recently than just now but never cheap compared with anywhere except maybe a few (e.g.)Singapore, Ireland and Norway. As for there being too many on the road, well, that's because we have poor and expensive to use (despite heavy subsidies from tax) public transport infrastructure compared with virtually any comparable country.

The current government brainwashing situation is this, make cars really painfully expensive to run, then people will be glad to use the rubbish and expensive public transport instead, or simply be paying more tax from fuel/road fund etc. Who loses? We do, our standard of living drops as we're all paying more to drive to work, or to use the still unimproved, rubbish, more costly alternative form of public transport.

I'm happy to pay the true cost of oil, not happy to be ripped off by the government by 80p a litre under some pretend 'green' ploy which is just about raising revenue to cover their bankrupting of the economy, or their long term use of the cash cow car owner as a means of disproportionate tax revenue that should come be spread over from the whole population in the form of income tax instead.

The day you start believing the BS being spouted by the government and the mad green/liberals you should just have a stiff talk with yourself. You've either been stiffed and forced out of your car onto a poor alternative, or you've agreed to pay more to use you car, and you've accepted that either is a good thing. Very Orwellian. As long as the trash TV shows aren't messed with the British sheeple will accept absolutely anything, and our mess of a country is the result of that.

[Orta]

If you want a bleak view of the future friends look no further. Eventually fuel will be priced so ridiculously society will revert to a state similar to the early 1900s where there was very little civilian movement, people will live, work and shop all in very small closed communities. As it will not be cost effective to travel that bit further to find cheaper prices on products, it won't be worth taking that only slightly higher paying job with a 30 mile commute.

It's downhill from here people!

Don't get me started on the green debate tho. I've had for the past 4 years a 50 round trip commute, there is NO buses, NO trains available. I WILL NOT feel guilty of be called evil because I have to use my car for work. I don't have an alternative!! Very few people do!

~~~Political rant over, let's talk about big wheels and exhausts again~~~

[robmawer]

Eventually fuel will be priced so ridiculously society will revert to a state similar to the early 1900s where there was very little civilian movement, people will live, work and shop all in very small closed communities.

Dunno, us humans are quite a bright bunch who invented the internal combustione engine in the first place, I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that someone could think of a better way of doing things. After all, there are non-oil-derived fuel sources out there which could be used to power cars, and for the most part do we all need to drive into an office every day or half way up the country for a one hour meeting?

Rob.

[Dr Zoidberg]

Dunno, us humans are quite a bright bunch who invented the internal combustione engine in the first place, I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that someone could think of a better way of doing things. After all, there are non-oil-derived fuel sources out there which could be used to power cars, and for the most part do we all need to drive into an office every day or half way up the country for a one hour meeting?

Rob.

As soon as someone finds a viable form of nuclear fusion that can be used for cheap(ish) and relatively unlimited energy generation you'll very quickly find cars shifting to electric power.

['daiking']

As soon as someone finds a viable form of nuclear fusion that can be used for cheap(ish) and relatively unlimited energy generation you'll very quickly find cars shifting to electric power.

Unfortunately it seems like we've been 50 years away from that for the last 50 years. I went to a "future transport fuels" lecture by Lotus who had pinned their hopes on using (presumably nuclear) electricity to produce hydrogen which could be processed with CO2* to make ethanol - rahter than starving the world to death to make bio-ethanol.

Strange that this strategy requires minimal changes in internal combustion engine technology... cynical? moi?

They rubbished plain hydrogen on the basis you couldn't get enough into a car to compete with petrol as a gas and as a liquid you wasted 40% of the energy to convert it.

*One interesting statistic he gave was that 20% of man made CO2 is related to making cement/concrete! Not found out if that's true yet.

[cheezemonkhai]

You've certainly grasped the whole point of this thread. The guy who wrote the article on MSN did so because he felt exactly as you do. Whether you are right or not remains to be seen but I think diesel car owners should be aware, as they may ignore the situation at their peril. It's too late to act once residuals have gone through the floor. I'm certainly ready to jump ship if it gets any worse.

Really please do jump back to petrol along with everyone else and derv prices will come down as there is more than needed.

While you're at it have you noticed they are fitting turbos and other expensive parts to petrol cars again. These will go just as frequently if not more so than on the dervs if both have been made properly. I mean look at the old turbo petrol cars from the 80's fires here and there as they run hotter so when they let go they really let go.

I love the doom mongers and as said quite happy to be rid.

[horkin]

Really please do jump back to petrol along with everyone else and derv prices will come down as there is more than needed.

While you're at it have you noticed they are fitting turbos and other expensive parts to petrol cars again. These will go just as frequently if not more so than on the dervs if both have been made properly. I mean look at the old turbo petrol cars from the 80's fires here and there as they run hotter so when they let go they really let go.

I love the doom mongers and as said quite happy to be rid.

A strange post indeed.. I am not looking to offend and I don't understand how, if decided to go petrol, you would have rid. Rid in what sense?? All I am saying is that we need to keep an eye on things as they are going and if it becomes more economical to run petrol over diesel, that's the way I'll go. You of course are entitled to drive whatever you want , lots of people drive uneconomical cars and are happy to do so. They and you will never incurr my wrath for doing so. Until I started this thread I was never aware that there were so many people who take the petrol/diesel thing so personnally. It's as if they actually despise people who drive a different car..

[Blade404]

Really please do jump back to petrol along with everyone else and derv prices will come down as there is more than needed.

But even if the general public bought fewer and fewer diesel cars it's unlikely to make any difference, as you have all this carbon foot print and carbon credit nonsense oh and not forgetting taxes based on CO2 output pushing more and more company car drivers towards diesel cars.

I had a look at the car list at my last job and there wasn't a single petrol car on it.

I can't see diesel ever being as cheap as once was.

This months Evo put an LPG powered Megane sport up against several fast diesels and it had the lowest cost per mile :eek: even cheaper than diesels which archived twice the mpg... :rubchin:

[moley]

LPG cars will be cheaper per mile because of the low cost of LPG. However there are a few drawbacks with LPG: 1, the cost of conversion 2, you are going to lose space in the car to fit the tank 3, limited number of LPG stations 4, quality of the converstions & engine problems etc. If you have a thirsty petrol engine and you do a high mileage LPG could be the fuel for you. The CO2 is higher than diesels, but less than petrol.

LPG has been around for over thirty years in Europe and the take up as never been that high. In the UK there only seems to be an interest in LPG when the cost of petrol & diesel goes up in price.

[Dr Zoidberg]

The two problems with LPG are continued uncertainty about how long it will be available at roughly half unleaded's price , and worries about damage to the engine.

Someone I know had a Jeep Grand Cherokee converted to LPG and it was very cheap to run (for a car of that size , obviously) but then engine problems started cropping up.

Neither the manufacturers or fitters of the LPG kit would accept responsibilty and he was without the car for months while the faults were identified , and a bill for several thousand pounds wiping out all the savings

[Decron]

Until I started this thread I was never aware that there were so many people who take the petrol/diesel thing so personnally. It's as if they actually despise people who drive a different car..

No it's nothing to do with it, it's the way you post. Your not inviting discussion more just making statements. I am not getting into the whole thing again but just though I needed to point this out as you seem a little bemused you have had such a reaction.