This seems like the most appropriate place here to pose these 2 questions prompted by an intranet discussion. We know that you are generally not allowed to enter one until your exit is clear:-

1) Another practical issue: Consider a two lane dual carriageway which

forks ahead. Most traffic takes the LH fork, and there is often a

queue. Thus the RH lane is clear. Impatient drivers therefore go down

the RH lane and push into the queuing traffic in the LH lane. About 50

yards from the fork there is a signal controlled junction with a yellow

box. If you stop at the box junction until your exit is clear, drivers

from the RH lane use the gap to cut in. At what point, in other words

after how many cars have cut in, do you give up driving properly and

just block the box?

2) Where do you stand if,

at a 4-way, you enter a box to make a right turn once an opposing rtaffic

stream has cleared, but that stream fills the road you intended to turn onto

such that you can not exit the box?

I'm pretty sure I know what an actual police officer would do, but I suspect

I know what a civilian examining camera footage or acting as a "traffic

enforcement ossifer" would do as well.

answer to first one is no. second one you can enter a box junction as long as your exit is clear, if it was clear when you enter it then i beleive you are still correct to be where you are. ill fish out my highway code book later for the wording.

That's pretty much what I thought to both.

In case (2), I'm not sure I'd like your chances against the "the camera never lies" (despite increasing evidence to the contrary) brigade though.

"Yellow box junctions" I happened upon at a local council meeting about a year ago where they said that it needed only "up to" 50% of your car to be across the line (so into the box) and static (or not moving according to the vid cam footage) so the auto-cam ticket would stand (therefore irrespective of traffic conditions or whether or not the car was in any way causing an obstruction) and disallowing that the exit-ahead traffic was about to move etc etc.

In London there was a judgement from a court case, though whether this would apply nationally or has been superseded I don't know, but what is said was that:

If you are intending to turn right and people have stopped before the box so that you can get onto it, you are entitled to drive onto it, whether your "right turn" road is clear or not (i.e. you can just sit there until someone gives way and lets you out). However, the person's claim failed because he/she was trying to turn left out of a side road and apparently that is not allowed unless the exit is clear, as if travelling in a straight line.

Now, if that is still true, clearly one cannot get out of a side road when wanting to turn left unless a motorist kindly waves you into the box ahead of them once traffic starts to move and you can see you'll have a clear exit (again talking auto-cam here).

That really also answers your first question - you don't give up driving properly and entering the box because if there's an auto-cam your exit will never be seen to be clear.

I wonder if you could get yourself into the outside lane and do what others do to turn left, since if they were being ticketed at the rate of one per second, I can't think many would still be doing that. One for Pepipoo maybe?

Regards

Mo

Which sort of confirms what I thought; you need a competent person to be there or review the video footage to make a sound case.

Legally speaking, you should be allowed to enter the box in order to make a right turn, unless your exit route is visibly to you chockka when you enter. OTOH you may not enter a box when going straight on or left, unless you can leave it without stopping.

Which sort of confirms what I thought; you need a competent person to be there or review the video footage to make a sound case.

Or go see the vid footage yourself, offer a representation (which might well be automatically rejected as allegedly that's a standard practice for moneyspinning "gotcha" cameras, then appeal. You might well have your appeal upheld and be able to reclaim at least some costs. It is a nuisance, i.e. time consuming having to go through that though.

Auto cameras make me want to take a bus...

Regards

Mo

Thanks Mo. I've not had an issue with one of these cameras; it was something someone else said which got me wondering (basically he was complaining because he'd been done for stopping on a box whilst going straight on), and then someone else hung their query onto mine.

Hi. Sorry Ken, I should have spoken in the third person, i.e. if "one" gets a ticket etc. It's a bit of a sore point down here about the antics of boroughs which have opted to decriminalise (so can issue fines instead of the police issuing points) as to their antics. I know other areas in the country have gone the same way and come in for just as much flack.

I was hoping my post was more factual than a rant, but it's hard to remain calm with auto cams. And breathe.

Mo

I agree totally about auto cams fair lady. The bloke that got me wondering fully deserved to be nicked (from his own complaint about it).

The other way to avoid getting nicked, very popular down this neck of the woods, is to donne a shidaw or hijab or other suitable middle eastern ladies garb.

This will be proof against all manner of traffic violations. And just as the junction clears and the lights are changing against you, you speed across the junction and stop, in the middle of a cross-hatched box, right in front of the vehicles who have just been given right of way, and then laugh at the drivers of the obstructed cars.

Never a copper around when it matters ! They could make a fortune on this particular junction.

Nick

then claim race discrimination if they say anything to you

Legally speaking, you should be allowed to enter the box in order to make a right turn, unless your exit route is visibly to you chockka when you enter. OTOH you may not enter a box when going straight on or left, unless you can leave it without stopping.

unless it's already been said...you're allowed to enter the box and wait if you want to turn right and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right

unless it's already been said...you're allowed to enter the box and wait if you want to turn right and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right

Thanks mate, but that was exactly my point. When you enter the box, your exit is clear, but by the time the oncoming traffic has cleared, you are blocked by traffic which turned left whilst you were waiting.

I think you've done nothing wrong, but I'm not sure an automated camera would see it the same way.

I think you've done nothing wrong, but I'm not sure an automated camera would see it the same way.

Are there automated cameras monitoring box junctions? Be interested if you have any more info on them as I've never (knowingly!) seen one....

Chris

believe they are commonly used in london. maybe transport for london site may have some info??

You're right, Paul!

4)Box junction cameras

These I have only known of in Central London, where they are often advertised by signs. They look down at a box junction and photograph cars on it when the lights change. They are to prevent people from blocking junctions by sitting in the box junctions and are very responsive, a fine on it's way to you probably before you're off the junction!

So only work on those box junctions near traffic lights....

Chris

You're right, Paul!

So only work on those box junctions near traffic lights....

Chris

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which is probably fair enough; a lot of junctions that control the minor road with a give way or stop tend to have a "keep clear" rather than box junction marking IME.

If you've read any recent Autocar mag's even their staff get done by the autocams. Although they managed to appeal and get it quashed

which is probably fair enough; a lot of junctions that control the minor road with a give way or stop tend to have a "keep clear" rather than box junction marking IME.

Around this way, the majority of box junctions seem to appear to be used on roads where traffic backs up, blocking access to minor roads, due to the queue the traffic lights further up the major road have caused. Also saw one on a roundabout the other day which introduces some interesting issues of its own

Chris

Hi Chris - we have loads of cameras in London whether there are traffic lights or not and certainly some specifically covering some yellow box junctions where loadsamoney will result from even minor transgressions in permanently busy traffic, as I've mentioned. Also e.g. cameras monitoring no right turns, even though a sign on the main road will be happily obscured behind where buses stand (nothing on the street entrance itself) so another good loadsamoney one.

Most motorists don't mind being done when it's a fair cop, but antics such as marking out parking bays and doing motorists for parking in them because there's still a yellow line along the kerb cause a lot of, er, unrest, shall we say.

Stopping even for a moment along a road (not on a box) to check a map or even to suss out which lane you're meant to be in will get you a ticket from auto cams. A notable yellow box case went to appeal when a guy had stopped because a woman was pushing a pram across the road in front of him yet the council refused his representation (hence going to appeal) even though the woman/pram was clearly visible on the photo (as shown on internet reports) So yes, cameras do exist

Regards

Mo