I'm intrigued.

You get these car discounters (Motorpoint, Carcraft, Autofinders, Drive the deal, jamjar etc etc) who sell pre-registered cars. Some are under 3 months old and result in considerable savings for the buyer, which is a good thing.

Some will be cars dealers registered just to meet their sales targets and they get a bonus for having shifted tin which outweighs the cost of regisering them.

Some of these will be ex-demos. As they are supposed to be being run as demos, the dealer is supposed to keep the cars on site during this period as effectively they are being paid commision by the manufacturer to run these as demo cars, normally around £1 to £1.5k per car, sometimes more. This is sometimes referred to as writeback.

Surely by selling these cars they are comitting fraud which is then further compounded by the company selling them to the unwitting bargain hunter. The illegal part is that they are selling a car to which they don't really have title of, and furthermore, more often than not the car is sold to a finance company on behalf of the new owner (HP or Lease). Then comes the real tricky part for the new owner, do you ever remember the question when it comes to insurance time "are you the owner and registered keeper of this vehicle sir?", I bet everyone says yes!!!

So in short they sell you a car which they really shouldn't be selling, they then sell you finance on that car and pass it off as being a pre registered bargain. Hmm, I wonder what would happen if either the dealer or the discounter went into recievership with quite a few creditors wanting some cash back???

Might be worth checking before you part with your cash.....

If I remember correctly when I bought my Octavia it was a demo (I was the only demo driver though!) and it was reg. to Skoda UK

Interesting point.

A friend of mine many years ago had his company car reposessed because someone in the chain of dealer/finance company/lease company/ employer hadn't paid.

I would assume that it's just "accepted practice" by the dealer.

Phil

A good point very well made Jon.

I think these less than scrupulous dealers tend to keep the V5 for the three month 'demonstrator' period in case they happen to be audited by the manufacturer or VAT man. They then claim the fleet registration bonus from the manufacturer and also claim tax back in terms of asset depreciation for the 3 months they 'demonstrate' the vehicle. Assuming a rate of 2% per month on an £18k car then it would net the dishonest dealer circa £1k when coupled with the Manufacturer allowance makes a considerable sum of money.

The worrying thing for the consumer has got to be the question of legal ownership should one of the companies involved go into receivership/liquidation not to mention registered keeper and insurance implications. I think you'd find it quite difficult/expensive to insure a car for which you claimed to be the main user but weren't actually the registered keeper. All of the sudden makes your cheap car look like a not so good proposition doesn't it.

I must admit , I do know of this

They are given some big discounts for Courtesy cars too

These have to be kept by the dealer for 12 months

The problem arises when the V5 has to be kept via the dealer and then when it comes to a tax reminder , this goes to the dealers

Then when you need to re tax the car , you have nothing to do this with

This is what exactly happened to my friend when she bought a Fiat , I know I did tell her.

When I called the dealership , they said that I was wrong and this was not so

So when I informed them that I would get in touch with Fiat UK with my thoughts , they offered her a free service and pay an amount for her to drive to pick up the paperwork as she had 1 day left to tax her car

So I wonder who was right , myself or them?

Sarah

Thanks Stu, I never knew I had it in me to be so erudite

Do these companies actually do this sort of thing or am I worrying about nothing? It's just when I read about people not getting their V5s within a certain time that I get suspicious..... or am I just old, untrusting and cynical?

Thanks Stu, I never knew I had it in me to be so erudite

Do these companies actually do this sort of thing or am I worrying about nothing? It's just when I read about people not getting their V5s within a certain time that I get suspicious..... or am I just old, untrusting and cynical?

A good point, well made sir

I am sure that the more unscrupulous end of the market use these tactics, best to buy a new car, were you are the first registered keeper and then there can be no question, I think D2D out of the list you provide work as just an introduction agency to the dealer so no pre reg malarky:)

Blimey is a pickle isn't it. I'm suprised people like Skoda UK (who have been known to check websites in the past) haven't picked up on stuff like this and investigated.

Do these companies actually do this sort of thing or am I worrying about nothing? It's just when I read about people not getting their V5s within a certain time that I get suspicious..... or am I just old, untrusting and cynical?

Sadly Jon I don't think you can put this one down to your age. It really is happening.

I'd like to see it stopped at the source, by the manufacturer's. Don't get me wrong I'm all for people getting a bargain but in this type of sale I believe the buyers are being slightly misled.

So Stu, as I see it, anyone who is told they will have to wait any length of time for their V5 should be both running a mile and reporting the affair to trading standards/ SKUK for fear of not actually owning the car when they have paid over their hard earned. In fact as you have pointed out the car could be repossesed should the dealer go out of business in the meantime, which makes it no differant to theft and buying a clone/ ringer from the guy down the pub :eek:

I think it's safe to say that I myself would be giving it a wide berth yes.

As for the ownership side of things, for me it's a grey area, having the V5 and being the registered keeper doesn't confirm ownership. However, as I am sure you are aware, if you were to purchase a car by using a Hire Purchase or Lease Purchase agreement then the title of that vehicle remains with the finance company until such times as all monies outstanding have been paid. But if a dealership is claiming the depreciation back from HMRC then surely they are assuming that they have retained title of the vehicle.

As I said above the potential insurance implications for this if you were to have a total loss are worrying. Would be nice if perhaps Adrian Flux could put their slant on it.

So what happens with regards to things like traffic camera fines. If the dealer retains the V5 then would they be liable for parking fines, speeding etc etc ?

i have heard Carcraft are having "difficulties" at the moment

So what happens with regards to things like traffic camera fines. If the dealer retains the V5 then would they be liable for parking fines, speeding etc etc ?

Certainly put them in an interesting position, they would recieve the paperwork if they were the registered keeper and then it would down to them to identify the driver to the authorities.

Is this not encouraged by the manufacturers through the setting of sales targets and the awarding of bonuses? There was some years ago an investigation into the mass pre registering of vehicles by the manufacturers, so as to distort the sales figures and changes were made to discourage this practise.

I have found this link that gives some additional information:

Pre reg' Process

It mentions car rental companies, whom these days the manufacturers have under control due to 'buy back' deals. In the 1980s a certain large rental company had a falling out with Vauxhall, the slack was taken up by Austin Rover, who not only gave discounts upto 40%, they also threw in on the deal free of charge 50 MG Maestros.

Pre Reg is fine so long as the dealer transfers the ownership and registered keeper to the purchaser at the time of sale.

Here's me being Naive and thinking that these traders simply sold at a low price due to lower overheads and more sales than proper dealers.

Good informative thread Time for me to use that thread rating tool I have never used :P

So what happens with regards to things like traffic camera fines. If the dealer retains the V5 then would they be liable for parking fines, speeding etc etc ?

They'd forward on with a nice admin charge no doubt.

And if they delay in the case of parking fines, you'll loose out on the right to appeal or get the 50% discount.

I'm sure they'll have covered themselves in the very small print to stop buyers taking legal action against them too.

Shady dealers need taking down.

Time for me to use that thread rating tool I have never used :P

Another good point, I've done it too

Ohh look a story naming certain places , some of which don't actually sell used cars, saying how you might lose the car.

Sorry guys, while it might be the case with a few places up there some of them (eg DtD, Motorpoint) will sell you a new car. Add to that your consumer protection and that if you pay by C/Card you're covered through that then I don't think this is quite what is being made out.

Sounds like the dealers must be down on sales I guess, so these sites might actually help by directing people who would usually only be after a used car via private sale go to a dealer for a new car via the third party.

To be fair if you don't get your V5 with the car then I'd be asking serious questions and rejecting the sale.

I'd love to see some proof that the companies named in the OP have ever been involved in such business practises. While I've only ever used two of those, i've done so a fair few times with no problems.

At the end of the day many dealers can get close to those prices and I get the feeling they don't like the fact that people will rarely pay full retail price these days.

I'm sure they'll have covered themselves in the very small print to stop buyers taking legal action against them too.

Shady dealers need taking down.

For what it's worth no such contract would stand up as if the allegedly illegal business practises were taking place then as IIRC, no contract with illegal terms is actually valid.

Hence you can easily sue them and IIRC even have them wound up if they don't pay you.

I have tried to be non specific in the thread Mark, for obvious reasons. Suffice to say I have seen all of the evidence I need to see and have talked to the people who know the system as it should be.

I don't think for a minute that they are all at it, the main point of the thread points towards the retention of the V5.

Yeah I won't disagree if the company won't give you the V5 with the car, then I wouldn't touch it either.

I just don't think all of these companies are cowboys, although I certainly wouldn't use one of them mentioned, but for other reasons.

I think we will see a lot of this stopping now that the finance companies should be tightening up.

When I bought Forward Motors' Octavia 4X4 demonstrator way back in 2002, the car was registered to Skoda Auto who, rather than the dealer, held the V5. I had to wait a week or so after taking delivery of the car before the V5 was sent on to me.