Have you asked your son what he would like? what did he say?

It usually starts with Lamborghini's

He says he doesn't want a Panda (shame coz I think they're ok) or a Ka (girls Kar), but beyond that he just seems to want the coolest car available (whatever that is).

Having just shown him an online insurance quote from Directline (I suspect we won't be using them :eek:) he is moderating his views.

Im only 22 so i still pay through the nose for insurance and im my experience it seems to be the safer the car the cheaper the insurance. My first everyday car (besides my old Golf) was a clapped out old 1.1 96 Fiesta which i paid £900 insurance for TPFP, i had an accident with it on the m1, then it failed its MOT after being repaired so i got rid. My next car was the 1.4 Fabia, newer and safer, but bigger engine etc and the insurance was 'only' £750 Full Comp bearing in mind the accident i had had. After that i wanted the Furby Vrs 1.9TD 130bhp etc, but the insurance of this was at least double the insurance i pay now for my GPS which is still a 1.9TD 130bhp etc. But the GPS (Group 6 Ins) has 5 star NCAP compared to 4 Star for the Furby (Group 9 Ins!!) aswell as a plethora of airbags and many electronic safety systems, which is why i bought it over the Furby. So it seems that the insurers take our safety as a big consideration, which i suppose is due to the sheer number of personal injury claims made and their cost.

For safety's sake, I'd start in one of these:

That's a good point.

I once saw a Saxo that had been rear ended by a Sierra on the M62 and at a fairly low speed (outside of Leeds, nothing travels very fast on the M62 in either direction). I don't even think the Sierra had suffered any damage at all, but the Saxo looked as though it had been hit with a wrecking ball!! Intrusion into the rear passenger cabin looked as though it would have caused injury to any rear seat passengers.

It's enough for me to discount Saxos and 106's.

Hmmm...

Backs of cars are more solid than fronts and the siera isn't exactly solid at the front, more tin foil. I'd expect it's engine to do a lot of damage but then the sierra would have been wrecked too I would have thought. I've seen a few of them crashed and they didn't come off to well.

Where the fuel tank is in a 106/saxo if there was intrusion into the cabin then the petrol tank would have been split since it resides under the rear seats. Wouldn't have been pretty.

I know everyone likes to saxo/french car bash, but while i've seen them trashed at the front on not huge impacts with a modern car they are no worse than other cars of the same era.

You have to remember that modern cars have a load spreading crash bar at the front and 80s/early 90's cars don't have these.

If you're writing off the saxo/106 you will also want to avoid 90's examples of clio's, corsa, earlier fiesta and anything else that's in the supermini class.

Maybe go up to a 306/xsara/zx or a cheap fabia.

At the end of the day I still wouldn't get anything that's worth any money as it is almost certain it will get damaged and you don't want to have a claim against you. Hence if the car is worth nothing you will just DIY, not bother or get rid and replace.

For safety's sake, I'd start in one of these:

He already has, totalled it driving down the stairs one day

Then id be worried given his past record lol

For safety's sake, I'd start in one of these:

I'll take 1!!!!!

I think every person of a certain age in britain must have had a little tykes buggy, that could be another thread, post pics in your little tykes motor lol

I'd suggest something with ESPat least my pupil (who was a passenger in the back) has a healthy respect for speed now.......

I'd disagree. Too many people now seem to think that their driving is invincible because of driver aids which help keep the car on the black stuff. Instead of spending money on a car with ESP, invest in some skid pan sessions and get him booked up with the IAM as they will prove to be far more valuable.

I know so many people who have managed to crash their cars through a complete inability to conquer the simple physics of driving a car. They don't read the road, don't know how to overtake and just haven't a clue how to driver properly on a public highway yet all passed their tests with less than 5 minors which isn't bad going really. The most important thing is to ensure that they don't pick up bad habits and are tought to drive properly once passing their test as that does not teach young drivers how to handle a car or read the road to ensure that they are driving safely.

Incidentally, my first car was a 1.8 Fiat Bravo when I was 17. At that time, I paid less to insure it than friends did in 1.4 Fiestas and Escorts although I had plenty of people who kept telling me that it was too powerful for a new driver. Whilst i'm a pretty quick driver now, I spent a long time learning how to read roads, did skid pan sessions and spent some weekends driving with a mates dad who is not only a successful clubman rally driver but also an ex Traffic Cop. That made such a difference to my ability in the early days. I luckily had also spent a fair bit of time with various people in the couple of prior to me starting to drive who showed me a lot of tips on how to make safe progress and how to watch out for peoples manouvres.

If it were me I would go for something like a diesel citroen ZX, Vauxhall Astra 1.7td or something along those lines as they're not overly quick but have enough go to keep up with traffic without being nailed everywhere and are a bit safer to have a crash in should the worst happen. Newer corsas aren't bad but saxo's, older fiestas etc are as strong as old sardine tins.

Definitely go for a skid pan session once he's passed his test and also take him out on motorways as it's mad that you can drive alone on a busy motorway without ever having experienced even a dual carriageway previously!

He already has, totalled it driving down the stairs one day

I did that once with a kid's tricycle (fore-runner of the LTB).

I did the pass plus to practice motorway driving, well 6hrs solid of motorway driving as i had covered all the other bases during lessons, went from leeds to carlisle to manchester and back. Was well worth it, though ironically i had to drive on the motorway to where i was being picked up for my Pass Plus. Ive done skid pan sessions with my dad and brother too, that was a good experience. Im quite a slow driver anyway, never go fast into corners that i cant see the exit of, never put on the gas until i can see the exit.

Answering Cloverleaf's #34, and not trusting our Firewall.

Para 1) Agreed totally; all ESP will actually do is guarantee that you're going even faster when you run out of chassis talent, whilst fooling you that you're a good driver.

Para 2) 5 minors "not too bad". :eek: I had 2, one for fluffing an HC question at that, and think I'm an ok driver at best!

Para 3) My first car was an Ascona 1.9. Quick back in the day, and heruge grip. I slipped off the seat before the tyres let go!

Para 4) Agreed about the ZX, with the slight reservation that they can be punted along quick because they handle well, and have good grip.

Para 5) Not convinced by skid pan sessions, and less so by m/way lessons. That said, part-way through one practice with my dad I commented that the road I was on was like an m/way, except that tractors, pedestrians, bicycles et al were allowed on it!

Para 2) 5 minors "not too bad". :eek: I had 2, one for fluffing an HC question at that, and think I'm an ok driver at best!

Oh, I would definitely agree with you on that but in the grand scheme of things, considering that you are allowed to get up to something like 12 minors and many people are above 5, it isn't major.

Para 3) My first car was an Ascona 1.9. Quick back in the day, and heruge grip. I slipped off the seat before the tyres let go!

It's not the car that's dangerous but the driver. Somebody acting like an idiot in a slow car is more dangerous than a sensible driver in a fast car. You don't have to go fast just because the powers there.

Para 4) Agreed about the ZX, with the slight reservation that they can be punted along quick because they handle well, and have good grip.

That is the downside but at least the car is a little more capable of handling than a bog standard saxo in some ways.

Para 5) Not convinced by skid pan sessions, and less so by m/way lessons. That said, part-way through one practice with my dad I commented that the road I was on was like an m/way, except that tractors, pedestrians, bicycles et al were allowed on it!

Skid pan sessions help kids who haven't driven much what can happen in a skid - people I know who have done them say that it helped them get a feel for what a car does when it loses grip and how difficult it can be to control it. Motorway lessons I think should be essential. The number of times I have been tailgated in a queue of traffic at 80+ by some young driver (girls seem worse at this) who has no idea of the stopping distance that it takes from that sort of speed or one who has no idea of the speed differential and is just bumbling around with no idea as to what they are doing.

The test checks you can manouvre a car around town and as I am sure you will all agree, that is just a small part of a whole range of skills required to safely pilot a 1 ton tin box.

Getting a kid a car with all the toys will often make them feel invincible as the car will catch their stupid errors.

The problem with that is that ESP can't beat physics so when they push it past the point that ESP can cope they will have a very big accident.

IMHO much better to realise in a car without it and potentially have a small off or a wiggle than a huge one.

In terms of NCAP etc what you need to remember I suppose is the tests were done when the cars were new. I think the Merc at £1,600 sounds a bargain, although it did fail an elk test and maybe only passed because of ESP. Perhaps not the best chassis then. Something like an astra or focus should be able to be had for peanuts and be cheap to repair. A golf or polo might be worth a look too.

Good point.

The Astra I had understeered when pushed too hard so you'd know not to push it too hard.

Newbs might be frightened of ABS when it pushes the pedal back up etc...

Of course if you get a tinpot car with a 2 star rating they are safer than 4 star ones as you'll be looking to avoid colissions

It was the a-Class mk1 I believe that failed it, didnt they have to redesign the rear suspension?

Should be able to get a nice Focus 1.6 in budget. About as reliable as cars get, lovely to drive, and cheap to run too!

My dad has a 54 plate Xsara, and I'd take my brothers Y plate Focus every time.

It was the a-Class mk1 I believe that failed it, didnt they have to redesign the rear suspension?

Might have done but I know a friend who has one and gets through full rear suspension sets on a frighteningly regular basis. He was also told it wasn't uncommon and that they all do it.

I don't understands peoples reluctance for a car with ESP.... all the comments about "they will only push if further " ect, are irrelevent, if they are that mentality, then they will "only push it further" whether the car has ESP or not, it doesn't mean for one second that they will suddenly start driving like idiots! if they are like that, then they will drive like idiots anyway, whether the car has ESP or not!!!

what if the acciden isn't even anything to do with the driver?! watch this vid (and DO bloody watch it, no comments please without watching it, especially from 2 mins on.... the mark I merc a-class is demonstrated.....)

and LISTEN to the description of the situations (for example "reacts far faster than the best driver ever could do..." ect ) and none of the situations where this sytem saves the accident, does it involve the driver acting like an idiot! and listen to the last statement of "it doesnt allow for drivers being stupid and irresponible " ect..

I'm I'm not arguing that point, (that young drivers will be idiots) just that there is a VERY high chance of ESP saving an otherwise un-saveable situation......

ESP is a very valuable saftey net, and is proven to save lives (some insurance companies, and remember they are simply statistical databases, state that 70% or more fatal accidents would be prevented if the car in question has ESP......)

there are no negatives in my opinion, all the people that say "they will only go even faster then run out of road..." ect means that they (the driver) if they do this, are idiots, and would make the same mistakes, ESP or not, BUT ESP could save them...

I wouldn't skimp on safety... yes the merc may be more expensive to repair, but its just money, a childs life can never be brought back, no matter how much money you have.

NCAP5 and ESP all the way.

Skid pan sessions help kids who haven't driven much what can happen in a skid - people I know who have done them say that it helped them get a feel for what a car does when it loses grip and how difficult it can be to control it.

I'd completely agree with this, however my main reservation about skid pans is that it's an artificial environment where skids are engineered at low speeds. My own personal feeling is that something like an airfield/play day is much more useful as you can explore real-world limits and behaviours in a safe environment. Experiencing stopping distances from a variety of speeds (including 3 figures) is also a real eye opener and invaluable imho.

For a first car, I'd be looking at a Corsa or Micra and getting as new as possible. Cheap to insure, run and service with predictable, controllable handling. The '95 N reg Corsa an ex had stood up remarkably well when it was hit by a 44T lorry on the M1 and she walked away completely unharmed. Not bad for an NCAP "death-trap" 2 star car.

Chris

I would have to agree with Sharkrider regarding ESP.

Personally i wouldn`t buy a car without ESP, for me safety has a very high priority. Things can happen very fast, and without you having the slightest impact on the outcome.

In Denmark you will have trouble finding a new car without ESP as standard, and to my knowledge, ABS is standard on all new cars sold in DK. This has been a demand from the buyers, and also the motorist organisations.

Yes, he might have a few bumps as a new driver - but don`t forget safety.

This is my view, and it has really changed after i had an accident, where a guy ran a red light and hit me side on. So glad i was in a safe car - i was very impressed with the Fabia, and so where a couple of the witnesses.

The '95 N reg Corsa an ex had stood up remarkably well when it was hit by a 44T lorry on the M1 and she walked away completely unharmed. Not bad for an NCAP "death-trap" 2 star car.

I gave my missus my Fabia so she wouldnt have to drive round in one of those sardine tins anymore. Older cars rust and weaken. Money is just money, the life and health of a loved one is irreplaceable.

I'd completely agree with this, however my main reservation about skid pans is that it's an artificial environment where skids are engineered at low speeds. My own personal feeling is that something like an airfield/play day is much more useful as you can explore real-world limits and behaviours in a safe environment. Experiencing stopping distances from a variety of speeds (including 3 figures) is also a real eye opener and invaluable imho.

I agree, my dad took me to tockwith arfield near york many weekends for just this reason from the age of 14. Im sure he thought it was a good idea until i nearly rolled his Jeep Grand Cherokee , he was encouraging me though.

I gave my missus my Fabia so she wouldnt have to drive round in one of those sardine tins anymore.

A sardine tin? Did you read what I posted? :P

Chris

Yes i did, didnt mean dismiss you sorry, it was more a comparative remark about modern cars over older cars.