Sorry, i got confused, as your image was showing how to drift on a circuit and thought you ment you couldnt get a FWD car to behave like that in a similar situation (on circuit)...

Apologies

Kev

So Apogee, you haven't actually tried a RARB on a Fabia then? Or driven someone else's?

I heartily recommend it. All this talk of drifting and oversteer is I think missing the most important effect of the ARB. Yes, those things happen at the absolute limit, but at more 'normal' speeds on 'normal' roads it reduces body roll significantly, making the whole car feel more planted and turn in response sharper. Sweeping NSL bends become a joy.

Regardless of the how or why, you really need to try it.

Edited 3 September, 200916 yr by Kaiserb_uk

You get the same "excess understeer" talk bout Octy 1s. I will conceed that they do understeer on the limit, but by those speeds you're pushing way harder than is normally sane, particularly given that you're 10..15mph above a reasonable entry speed. I really get the feeling that a lot of people complain about their (the driver, not the car) slow and late turnin, and the time taken for weight transfer as being "understeer", rather than the actual "car running wide of commanded line".

@ Kaiserb_uk:

No, I haven't, but then I do have a PD160, and at no time have I ever tried to claim it makes my car go any faster or rev any more freely!

Now, I'm not saying they don't affect the handling; I'm just saying I don't buy the posts made by some people (not in this thread, admittedly) that they turn the car into some sort of tail-happy oversteer machine! I have stiffer, lower suspension which a satisfactory job of controlling body roll, but then roll is primarily a ride comfort issue as opposed to an actual handling issue. I also have a strut brace, and I can feel the effect it has in terms of making the steering more predictable in some of the fast bends I drive. But as far as a RARB / beam brace is concerned, I don't like the fact that it works by reducing the independence of the rear suspension - I prefer to have all four wheels on the road as much as possible, thanks! Sure, it might make for some fun wheel-c0cking moments on the track, but that's not the same as a true ARB which uses leverage to transfer force from one side of the car to the other.

Effectively, you're not doing anything to improve grip at the front, you're just adding something to lessen it at the rear - and the last thing I want is less grip...

:iagree: - about the effects of adding a RARB; I still think lots of strut braces are snakeoil.

:iagree: - about the effects of adding a RARB; I still think lots of strut braces are snakeoil.

OT, but my SEAT strut brace requires me to hold it with one hand, leaning back against it with all my weight, while inserting the bolts hand-tight with the other.

On a back-of-fag-packet basis, I reckon that's got to be a couple of hundred Newtons (I'm a hefty bloke!) pulling the turrets together. The most cornering force I've ever experienced was 0.7g (hardly F1 levels!!!), but again on a back-of-fag-packet basis, that works out as... a couple of hundred Newtons lateral force, which presumably is biased towards the outside wheels.

It's all the empirical data I need!

Probably explains why the wear-on-inside-shoulder-of-front-tyres issue has resurfaced again, however...

OT, but my SEAT strut brace requires me to hold it with one hand, leaning back against it with all my weight, while inserting the bolts hand-tight with the other.

On a back-of-fag-packet basis, I reckon that's got to be a couple of hundred Newtons (I'm a hefty bloke!) pulling the turrets together. The most cornering force I've ever experienced was 0.7g (hardly F1 levels!!!), but again on a back-of-fag-packet basis, that works out as... a couple of hundred Newtons lateral force, which presumably is biased towards the outside wheels

So If I'm going to get just one for the time being, would you say get the Seat brace, rather than a RARB?

Tell you what Chris , do you want to try my car when you come in?

Sarah

:iagree: - about the effects of adding a RARB; I still think lots of strut braces are snakeoil.

Do you mean, lots.. as in many on one car.. or lots, as in the many different manufacturers making them?

Seat saw fit to add the strut brace... but I'm guessing that they never fitted a RARB? I guess there's some proof in that pudding then.

So Would I be right in saying...

The RARB give you less roll but also less grip.. and so you persevere the car to be holding on more than it actually is? And this is why the RARB can cause the back end to let go.. because you push harder.. because you think you have more grip when you actually don't?

Oh god.. lol.. I just don't know now!

So If I'm going to get just one for the time being, would you say get the Seat brace, rather than a RARB?

:popcorn: or did i already say that!

My SEAT front brace was fitted at the same time as replacing split console bushes with Cupra items; but i still reckon I noticed more of an overall difference following fitment of the Jabba RARB (reduction in body roll more than anything)

Although having steering that tracked straight and true was a revelation! but probably more down to the bushes than anything

Edited 3 September, 200916 yr by PastyBoy

I've had one Fabia vRS with Eibachs, std dampers, std bushes, Seat strutbrace.

I've had one Fabia vRS with Eibachs, Koni FSDs, Cupra bushes, a Jabba R-ARB and no Seat strutbrace.

The second one was miles better! And it was miles better than my 1st Fabia with just the Jabba R-ARB on it.

Conclusion I draw: why didn't I fit a front strutbrace to the 2nd Fabia? It made no perceivable difference. The R-ARB did.

Steve

It made no perceivable difference

SEAT brace looks cool though!

(even if it does make getting the airbox off a p1sser of a job!)

So what warm - hot hatches have RARB (in the style of the Fabia's) fitted from the factory?

I fitted my strut brace and felt very little difference when I drove how I drive.

I fitted my RARB and I felt a massively huge difference (for the better) when I drove how I drive.

If I had to start again I'd happily fork out for the RARB. Apart from the 312's nothing else has made me feel more confidence in the car when I'm driving it.

Can't say that it makes the car better, or that it improves/worsens grip from any kind of mechanical/scientific viewpoint. But from 'me sitting behind the wheel' it's made a huge positive difference and I'd not be without it, considering how it felt before.

(rest of my suspension is standard)

Clio Trophy. 22mm. That's all you need to know....

So what warm - hot hatches have RARB (in the style of the Fabia's) fitted from the factory?

FRS (mk1 and mk2)

ST170

Focus ST

even a boggo mk1 1.8 Focus is a nicer drive than a Fabia vRS (going on how my Ibiza isn't as nice as my Focus was)

So If I'm going to get just one for the time being, would you say get the Seat brace, rather than a RARB?

:ne_nau: I'm in something of a minority in my views on this subject. Having not had the strut brace without the new suspension, I can't say which is more responsible for the change in the handling from standard. But based on my understanding of how both work, I am happy to have the strut brace, and not the beam brace. I don't believe the strut brace makes any improvement to front end grip, but I do believe it makes the steering more predictable as I don't feel I have to make little adjustments as much as I did. But like I say, that could just be the suspension: I've hardly followed the Scientific Method...!!!

Ultimately, though, AFAICS the beam brace ultimately reduces rear end grip on the limit in bends, and that doesn't appeal, even if it means a better ride before I get there. Live rear axles belong on the far side of the Atlantic IMHO...

live rear axle? is the Fabia secretly RWD...:eek:

FRS (mk1 and mk2)

ST170

Focus ST

even a boggo mk1 1.8 Focus is a nicer drive than a Fabia vRS (going on how my Ibiza isn't as nice as my Focus was)

Ah, but all of them have INDEPENDENT rear suspension, so need a proper RARB (i.e.something linking one wheel to the other via pivots on the chassis) to stop the car falling over in the bends.

The Sport Clio has a rear beam like the Fabia, however being factory-fit, I hazard a guess that it's a proper RARB rather than a brace again - and let's face it, if ever a car had a reputation for going on three wheels in the corners, it's the Sport Clio!

live rear axle? is the Fabia secretly RWD...:eek:

Yeah, OK - it's not got a driveshaft and diff. in it, but it's a solid piece of metal connecting once hub to the other, which is what I was getting at... :P

Isn't that a straight beam from one hub to the other though?

Not a torsional design like the fabia where it twists the beam under cornering? Basically, what the rear ARB is doing is stiffening up the beam so it cant twist as much under load.

To the OP...

The RARB definitely does quite a lot of something. I have the Jabba one and it really helps pull things together. I don't tend to drive like a tit or try to attain maximum "G" cornering but even shy of the limits it's worth it.

My advice is to buy a RARB rather than not buy one. Without one, the Fabia's rear end is an unpredictable, lurchy mess.

J.

OT, but my SEAT strut brace requires me to hold it with one hand, leaning back against it with all my weight, while inserting the bolts hand-tight with the other.

On a back-of-fag-packet basis, I reckon that's got to be a couple of hundred Newtons (I'm a hefty bloke!) pulling the turrets together. The most cornering force I've ever experienced was 0.7g (hardly F1 levels!!!), but again on a back-of-fag-packet basis, that works out as... a couple of hundred Newtons lateral force, which presumably is biased towards the outside wheels.

Which proves exactly nothing except that the brace wasn't the same length between bolt centres as the bolts on the strut tops are. You don't know whether the brace was fractionally too short, or the shell was bent before you fitted the brace.

Do you mean, lots.. as in many on one car.. or lots, as in the many different manufacturers making them?

Seat saw fit to add the strut brace... but I'm guessing that they never fitted a RARB? I guess there's some proof in that pudding then.

:rofl:In the specific case, you know for a fact that the Seat is exactly the same width between strut tops as a straight Fabia do you? :P

In the general, lots of so-called braces (including some fitted to Furbies) have 2 hinge points, and are adjustable for length, so offer precisely no support.