This one came up at the weekend, about a roundabout locally...

A friend of mine is a learner and chose to go round, if you look at the image below, as the car in white (at the beginning of the blue arrows). They were coming off at exit 1 (first 'exit' with the red X isn't actually a vehicle exit) and continued round the outside of the roundabout, as the blue arrows indicate. Now the problem occurs due to the car marked with the yellow asterisk. They came down lane 2 of the road approaching the roundabout, and wanted to continue by coming off at exit 1, directly into lane 2 of that exit. Furious beeping and light flashing resulted from the driver of the 'yellow' car....

Now, my question is should the learner have selected lane 2 when approaching the roundabout, in order to navigate the roundabout and leave by exit 2? I have left the scale in the top right-hand corner to give some indication of the size of the roundabout. The issue is that it's quite congested and the size of roundabout isn't really sufficient for the amount of traffic needing to join & leave. For example, traffic waiting to 'join' at exit 1 often presumes you are carrying round to exit 3 and starts pulling out before you fully past them, resulting in a potential T-bone side impact! I'm just wondering which is the lesser of two evils :rubchin:

Just thought I'd open it up for a bit of debate really, to see what people's thoughts are. I know there's really no substitute for seeing the roundabout for yourself and actually driving the route yourself, but I've tried to give as much info & background as possible

Hope all of this makes sense!!!

Cheers,

Steve

I would go with both cars in the wrong, there really should be arrows on the approach lanes but given that there are in effect 4 exit lanes from the roundabout I would aportion the dual carriageway to the inside lane and the other 2 exits to the outside lane.

Yeah, I did think about that, and can't remember from memory on that route as to whether the lanes are marked appropriately as you approach.

It is a terrible roundabout though, whichever way you look at it

Steve

I don't think the yellow car is wrong to enter in lane 2 and exit in lane 2 of the roundabout on to the dual carriageway. Vehicles taking exit 3 and 4 should be in lane 2 not lane 1 IMHO.

What ever happened to the 1 o'clock rule?

What's the 1 o'clock rule?

Steve

Don't mess with yellow cars.

Lesson learnt!

Means if you look straight ahead, if your exit is past 12 o'clock then it's a right hand lane jobbie

I'd personally say that both were in the correct lanes, but the yellow driver was impatient as the other car was a learner and he wanted to get past. He should have either filtered in after him or if his speed was enough, in front.

To be honest, it's a poorly signed roundabout if this is allowed to happen.

They came down lane 2 of the road approaching the roundabout, and wanted to continue by coming off at exit 1, directly into lane 2 of that exit. Furious beeping and light flashing resulted from the driver of the 'yellow' car....

I'm confused by your terminology but I think you mean that both cars joined the roundabout from the two-lane dual carriageway road to the right. The learner joined from lane 1 and used the outer lane to take the second exit, while the other driver joined from lane 2 and used the inner lane to take the first exit.

Now, my question is should the learner have selected lane 2 when approaching the roundabout, in order to navigate the roundabout and leave by exit 2?

Yes, definitely. And especially so if there was someone in the car who was familiar with the junction.

The roundabout is clearly potentially dangerous, but many of the dangers can be ameliorated by careful consideration. The question to answer is where the bulk of the traffic flow is expected. The roundabout has two dual carriageways joining it, each with two lanes. There are also a couple of minor roads but it is clear that the planners expected the bulk of the traffic to be following along from one dual carriageway to the other, in both directions.

Next, given that both dual carriageways have two lanes, it is reasonable to expect traffic to keep to those lanes while passing from one dual carriageway to the next. Therefore it is most important that traffic not following these paths be particularly careful about choosing their own path to avoid conflict.

That's not the whole answer of course ...

If the learner finds themselves in an 'awkward' lane for where they want to go, they can (and should) indicate to show other drivers they don't intend to take the natural path of the roundabout. If they'd done this then the other car would have been less likely to move into a position of conflict.

If the other car joined the roundabout after the learner they should have remembered that it's best to avoid being alongside another vehicle on a roundabout as that's automatically a dangerous situation and open to the sort of misunderstanding that actually occurred.

Finally, the lane 2 car should have been indicating left before attempting to leave the roundabout, to make it clear to traffic following (but in the outside lane) about their intended path.

Isnt the yellow asterix car in the wrong lane anyway as he should be on the inside lane as he is comming off exit 1.( theerfore be in the left lane)

The learner approaching the roundabout is not an exit.

I treat a roundabout like a clock as well, straight across is 12'o clock, this exit & any left turn before this should be left lane on approach ( this means that youre less likely to cut anyone up ).

Any turning beyond this then it should be right lane.

There can be a bit of a grey area if you are taking the straight across exit ( 12'oclock ), as if its a dual carrage way then there is no real reason why you cant use the right lane on approach, provided youre not going to cut someone up on the exit of the roundabout.

What you didnt say, was the Yellow astirxed car using indicators to identify that they wanted exit 1 ?

Yeah, I agree it's badly laid out. The left lane should be cordoned off as a left filter lane, leaving the right lane to do as it pleases the whole way round (at least, that's what I increasingly see being done at similar junctions).

Isnt the yellow asterix car in the wrong lane anyway as he should be on the inside lane as he is comming off exit 1.( theerfore be in the left lane)

Not really - the 'yellow' car should be exiting in the 2nd lane of the dual carriageway, and not crossing lanes on the exit (that's even worse IMO). But he certainly should have been alert to the possibility of a car infront of him going around to the next exit and allowing room, thus negating the need for all the flashing and (no doubt) swearing.

Don't mess with yellow cars.

Lesson learnt!

I would agree, especially with your example

But I have no idea what colour car it was I'm afraid, I was just using an obvious colour for the illustration

Cheers,

Steve

I'm confused by your terminology but I think you mean that both cars joined the roundabout from the two-lane dual carriageway road to the right. The learner joined from lane 1 and used the outer lane to take the second exit, while the other driver joined from lane 2 and used the inner lane to take the first exit.

Thanks for your post; I'll feedback with those points as those are the types of things I've been thinking about. It's quite a good example of 'real-life' situations for the learner I suppose, as it's not a perfect roundabout or traffic system by any means.

To answer the question above, yes - sorry, should have mentioned that. Both vehicles would have been coming along the dual carriageway that you see at 3 o'clock in my image above.

Steve

What you didnt say, was the Yellow astirxed car using indicators to identify that they wanted exit 1 ?

Hi Steve - I don't have that info I'm afraid. Can't see that would have helped anyway, if they had been indicating as the learner was already on the roundabout and just passing lane 2 of the 1st exit, when the horns and light show started

Suppose a signal may have been seen if a mirror check was done when passing exit 1, but there probably still then wasn't time to do anything. Perhaps if the learner had put on a right signal at that point? :rubchin:

Steve

From the description, the markings are an abortion. Can you actually join the roundabout at X?

If not, then you should definitely only use the LH lane to travel through the roundabout right to left, but it may be advisible to use the centre or RH lane to follow the "blue" route, simply to prevent fvcktards attempting to overtake you on the roundabout.

Ken - no, it's a disused road at X; only used by pedestrians and cyclists now. Police vehicles do occasionally sit in the mouth of the 'exit'. But to be clear you can neither leave nor join at X in a car/motorised vehicle.

Confused by your use of 'centre or RH lane' above? There's a dual carriageway to join the roundabout (as the learner did) and a dual carriageway to leave at exit 1, so at best there is a choice of lanes 1 or 2 here?

Steve

Maybe it's my photo interpretation, but I thought there were 3 lanes on the approach for traffic moving R-L. If there are only 2, and given that X isn't a road (laybys and parking spaces on roundabouts are rare, but do exist), the learner was "in the right", but as I say I'd be inclined to use the RH lane for all but the first exit. However, unless signage and/or markings explicitly show otherwise, you should never approach a roundabout in anything other than the LH lane if intending to use the first exit.

However, unless signage and/or markings explicitly show otherwise, you should never approach a roundabout in anything other than the LH lane if intending to use the first exit.

Essentially the roundabout posted by wardy is similar to this one, (for traffic heading south).

Essentially the roundabout posted by wardy is similar to this one, (for traffic heading south).

I know another situation that used to be similar bar rotation. In this case, if Southbound and turning West I'd take the RH lane. In the absence of road markings otherwise, and if continuing South, I'd take whichever was clearer, but be careful and expect the guy in front of me to turn across my nose.

The blue arrowed car is in the wrong (Unless road markings indicate otherwise). The Highway Code says

186

Signals and position.

When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

* signal left and approach in the left-hand lane

* keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

* signal right and approach in the right-hand lane

* keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout

* signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want

When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

* select the appropriate lane on approach to the roundabout

* you should not normally need to signal on approach

* stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout

* signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want

When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it. /END QUOTE

Coming from the dual carriageway on the left of the photo, then the dual carriageway exit is slightly left of straight on, and the single carriageway to the top left of the photo is slightly right.

If the dual carriageways are continuations of the same road, then the asterisked car would have been in order to have proceeded up the dual carriageway. The 1978 version of the highway code showed this in a picture, but it had been changed by 2004. In 1978 it also said QUOTE/ If the roundabout itself is clear of traffic, take the most convenient lane through the roundabout. /END QUOTE. It no longer says that.

The current HC also tells you to:

187

In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to

* pedestrians who may be crossing the approach and exit roads

* traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout, especially vehicles intending to leave by the next exit

* traffic which may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly ?END QUOTE

In other words, WATCH OUT FOR IDIOTS!

AFAIK, there aren't any direction arrows painted on the road surface as you approach the roundabout! At least not on the route the learner took (coming along to the junction cited at 3 o'clock on my image).

Totally agree, if it were upto me I'd have lane 1 approaching as an 'exit 1 only'. Would make things easier, and safer.

Steve

if it were upto me I'd have lane 1 approaching as an 'exit 1 only'. Would make things easier, and safer.

Depending on what you mean ...

If you mean that any vehicles coming along the dual carriageway from the right must use lane 1 to be allowed to take the first exit onto the dual carriageway bottom left, then that'd mean the roundabout would needlessly become more of a bottleneck than it probably already is for the majority traffic flow.

If, on the other hand, you mean that vehicles coming along lane 1 of the dual carriageway on the right can only take the first exit onto the dual carriageway bottom left then that'd help to make things clear but, really, people ought to be able to work it out for themselves. That'd leave lane 2 for taking the first, second or third exits.

I think, sadly, your learner friend just chose wrong. Being a learner they are probably more likely to feel safe in lane 1, but in practice, lane 2 is the choice for that exit.

Fellwalker, I don't think it's quite as cut and dried as you make out. The exit they were leaving it is only just past 12 o'clock, hardly a right turn. This was a case of "choose the appropriate lane", and in the absence of any markings, either can be chosen. Experience would probably suggest lane 2, but there's no law saying it has to be so.

White car is wrong.

As 2 lanes on both sides, the yellow indicated car can use either lane, but the blue indicated path should have been in the RH lane upon approach.

Learners are taught to use the left lane at all times unless turning right, unless the left lane is marked for left turn only in which case they would need to use another lane for going to any other exit.

The sign on approach to the roundabout would indicate which lane is appropriate. If the road they are taking appears to be ahead on the road sign and there are no other signs or marking then the left lane would be taken to follow the road ahead. If the road is past 12 o'clock it should be treated as a right turn, right lane and right signal on approach.

So long as the roundabout doesnt have spriral lane markings on it then the learner is within their right to drive around the left lane of the roundabout until they reach their exit.

It is the responsibility of the car in lane 2 to check it is safe to leave the roundabout, signal and then leave only if it is safe to do so. Sounding the horn, flashing lights etc is simply road rage. The yellow car should have continued around the roundabout until it was safe for them to leave.