Snow (winter) tyres 2 or 4?

[RDH]

As I am in Germany for January and February I recently had winter tyres fitted to my Superb.

Having spent several hours in Basingstoke yesterday I now know their value. On one steep gradient a Range Rover Sport (presumably on normal tyres) failed to get to the top. My two wheel drive Superb sailed up with no problem at all. The Vredestein Wintrac Extreme tyres make driving on snow and ice an enjoyable challenge not an arduous task. After two hours negotiating abandoned cars in Basingstoke I made it to a rather slushy M3 and back to Somerset.

[vRSy]

This still depends on the car and on what summer tyres are on the back. Especially high speed rated tyres dont do well under cold conditions, these combined with winter tyres will give that "special" handling.

Driving a small car with "normal" tyres (rating and size) could be driveable with only one axle on winter tyres. A car with high speed rated tyres wont.

A car with only summer tyres is also driveable in snow, as long as you go slow enough the car stays driveable and dependable.

It is in case of, where the car can surprise you. And these situations often cost way more than those 2 bl***y extra winter tyres.

that was on my car and my previous St170 focus. both with high performance summer tyres on normally and using winter tyres on steel rims n the snow. never ever had any issues and thats bearing in mind i lived in bergen just outside of celle for the large majority of that time i had to drive some pretty large distances in the snow to get to places as it was in the middle of nowhere.

They will work, they are not as dangerous as you say but 4 winter tyres are def better

[harveys]

I came on here to put on a post, but couldn't help but read this one (as I made a similar one some time ago...and it turns out, got similar replies).

I am in the '2 will do' camp - but do understand all the logic about putting on 4. We ran a 2.3 V5 Bora for a few years & fitted two to the front on the recommendation of the AA guy that did the inspection when I bought it. My local trusted independant fitted two Grisvlad (or something like that) to the fronts - onto the standard alloys & charged me £12 to change them over every six months or so. An arrangement that worked for us.

We noticed a big difference in the grip & never had (or at least noticed) any of the issues described in this thread.

On the flip side...I would maybe go for 4 in the future...as I value the opinions you get on here...and it does seem like the majority should know best?!?

I am running a 2.0Tsfi on 18's...and it's certainly nae the best - I gave consideration to the Winter tyres thing, but didn't go for it (yet !) Fortunately I was driving my wife's Mazda 5 when I had to undertake a terrible trip thro' a very snowy Aberdeen this morning...it's not too bad in the snow & was even the lead car in the outside lane of the A90 at one point, after too many folk, going too slow was leading to cars getting stuck in the slow lane...I had to laugh when the boy in the Range Rover pulled out of the queue to follow me !

[mb14]

All of these are steel wheels with winter tyres fitted, so all you need to do is take a wheel off off and put the new wheel on one at a time.

This means you have a set of steels for winters, which will fit over the 312mm brakes (16") and will save you having to change tyres over.

HTH

FOr some reason the link won't work, but copy and paste should.

https://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/skw.pl?bestellnummer=9535--R-157125&cart_id=2256896.110.23918&Cookie=&dsco=110&csuchen=1&syt_d=&Hersteller=Skoda&PKWtyp=OCTAVIA+RS+2.0+TFSI&felge=16%20inch|5%20x%20112.00%20x%2057.00|5|50.00&PKWtypgenau=24|48|30|1984|147|200509||57.00|112.00|5|1Z|6208|P|E11*2001/116*0230*..|&my_1_car=Skoda__OCTAVIA%20RS%202.0%20TFSI____24|48|30|1984|147|200509||57.00|112.00|5|1Z|6208|P|E11*2001/116*0230*"]..|

https://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/skw.pl?bestellnummer=9535--506157&cart_id=73603419.110.21442&Cookie=&dsco=110&csuchen=1&syt_d=&Hersteller=Skoda&PKWtyp=OCTAVIA+RS+2.0+TFSI&felge=16%20inch|5%20x%20112.00%20x%2057.00|5|50.00&PKWtypgenau=24|48|30|1984|147|200509||57.00|112.00|5|1Z|6208|P|E11*2001/116*0230*..|&my_1_car=Skoda__OCTAVIA%20RS%202.0%20TFSI____24|48|30|1984|147|200509||57.00|112.00|5|1Z|6208|P|E11*2001/116*0230*..|

https://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/skw.pl?bestellnummer=9535--R-149009&cart_id=2256896.110.23918&Cookie=&dsco=110&csuchen=1&syt_d=&Hersteller=Skoda&PKWtyp=OCTAVIA+RS+2.0+TFSI&felge=16%20inch|5%20x%20112.00%20x%2057.00|5|50.00&PKWtypgenau=24|48|30|1984|147|200509||57.00|112.00|5|1Z|6208|P|E11*2001/116*0230*..|&my_1_car=Skoda__OCTAVIA%20RS%202.0%20TFSI____24|48|30|1984|147|200509||57.00|112.00|5|1Z|6208|P|E11*2001/116*0230*..|

https://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/skw.pl?bestellnummer=9535--D-103578&cart_id=2256896.110.23918&Cookie=&dsco=110&csuchen=1&syt_d=&Hersteller=Skoda&PKWtyp=OCTAVIA+RS+2.0+TFSI&felge=16%20inch|5%20x%20112.00%20x%2057.00|5|50.00&PKWtypgenau=24|48|30|1984|147|200509||57.00|112.00|5|1Z|6208|P|E11*2001/116*0230*..|&my_1_car=Skoda__OCTAVIA%20RS%202.0%20TFSI____24|48|30|1984|147|200509||57.00|112.00|5|1Z|6208|P|E11*2001/116*0230*..|

https://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/skw.pl?bestellnummer=9535--R-157125&cart_id=2256896.110.23918&Cookie=&dsco=110&csuchen=1&syt_d=&Hersteller=Skoda&PKWtyp=OCTAVIA+RS+2.0+TFSI&felge=16%20inch|5%20x%20112.00%20x%2057.00|5|50.00&PKWtypgenau=24|48|30|1984|147|200509||57.00|112.00|5|1Z|6208|P|E11*2001/116*0230*..|&my_1_car=Skoda__OCTAVIA%20RS%202.0%20TFSI____24|48|30|1984|147|200509||57.00|112.00|5|1Z|6208|P|E11*2001/116*0230*..|

[mb14]

Would this mean any 16" wheels will fit?

[Bowliog]

Have my winter tyres sitting waiting for the car. I went for 225/45/r17 in the end for my vrs. On the grounds you cant but snow standard snow chains on unless you go for a very narrow rim and most of the time I like the look and grip the wider tyre give when there is no snow. They cost me £730 but i normally get through tyres quickly so will run them for a couple of winters and then finish them off one summer. Hope not to have to use the snow chains but have to have them some of the places we plan to go and visit. Edited 22 December, 2009 by bowliog

[grobster]

Sorry mate you're wrong.

You will get nasty oversteer if ythe front is gripping and the rears not.

If you're going to buy winter tyres then do it properly or don't bother at all.

2 extra winter tyres are £160 delivered, so it's better to pay £160 over a few years, than buy a toy then slide the car out and cause hundreds in damage.

As for the ice comments.

I made it up a hill a 4x4 couldn't and started off from a hill, but on sheet ice, things are still not great. ABS going mad isn't a nice feeling.

I think we need a moderated ballance to the opinion of those who say front wheels only....compared to those who say all 4 corners should be fitted with winter tyres!!! No doubt the only issue about fitting winter tyres to the back also is cost.....and yes they are cheaper than any damage to you, your car, or anyone else or their car etc. However, do we really need them??? Braking is the only exception as that is absolutely down to friction between the tyre and the road and hence yes they offer a significant benefit when braking on a wet, icy or snowy surface.

Each road condition, incline, bends and road camber, brings it's own appropriate driving speed and style. With or without winter tyres, snow and ice demands respect!!! I'd like to think that most of our forum users would like to consider using winter tyres as an aid to not getting stuck in the snow and ice......not as an aid to driving a bit faster, or taking a corner a bit quicker than they would on summer tyres.

Driving speeds or styles where you get over steer, due to different tyres on the front compared to the back, are really not appropriate for the road shape in winter, no matter what tyres you are using. As for driving up a hill, on a front wheel drive car...the front tyres are absolutely the source of traction, with the rear wheels only trailing. If the hills are winding and seriously twisting at speed.....then maybe! In a straigt line up hill, they have no benefit at all. Some, may even argue that added grip on the rear wheel my offer unnecessary resistance against the traction and pull of the front.....driving wheels!!!

Personally, I'd say that with common sense and speeds appropriate for the conditions, winter tyres on the front only should be ok! However, if the budget permits, or if your driving style sometimes finds you going quick enough to put sideways loading/momentum into the back end of the car.....then yes... please put winter tyres on the back also....for the sake of yourself......and the rest of us also please!!!

Edited 22 December, 2009 by grobster

[vRSy]

i will be buying another set of winter tyres next year with rims to go with them as this is the first winter ive done without them since i learnt to drive and i miss them, i will also be getting a full set of four fitted.

i used to run just the fronts and in the many years i served in germany i never experienced any oversteer moments. Insisting that doing the fronts will make the car dangerous to me is scaremongering and plain wrong.

yes 4 winter tyres are better than two. of course they are, but two winter tyres on the front are better than summers, and thats from presonnel experience.

you make so much more progress with a full set of four though. and are especially comforting when braking as the back didnt step out as much.

i say buy the four but if you cant afford it, stil just go for the fronts IMO

[ged.fi]

i used to run just the fronts and in the many years i served in germany i never experienced any oversteer moments. Insisting that doing the fronts will make the car dangerous to me is scaremongering and plain wrong.

This is a rather intriguing discussion for me, considering I live in a country that gets real winter weather. Outfitting a car with a mix of summer and winter tires here is illegal - you will end up with a heavy fine if you get caught doing so. Then again, winter tires are mandatory in winter here.

The difference in behavior between winter and summer tires is so huge in bad weather conditions, that I would consider mixing them downright stupid. On a related note, a recent test of "continental" winter tires in a car magazine showed that they are no good for winter weather. It may be that combining summer tires with soft "winter" tires is not as bad...

[grobster]

This is a rather intriguing discussion for me, considering I live in a country that gets real winter weather. Outfitting a car with a mix of summer and winter tires here is illegal - you will end up with a heavy fine if you get caught doing so. Then again, winter tires are mandatory in winter here.

The difference in behavior between winter and summer tires is so huge in bad weather conditions, that I would consider mixing them downright stupid. On a related note, a recent test of "continental" winter tires in a car magazine showed that they are no good for winter weather. It may be that combining summer tires with soft "winter" tires is not as bad...

A fair comment, and well put. In such a country where the weather conditions are bad enough for laws to be passed....I can understand why such a ruling is made, mixing in such conditons is perhaps stupid. It also takes out misinterpretation of the law for those who run front wheel drive, rear wheel drive and 4 wheel drive vehicles! Mixing in the latter 2 could have a devastating result!

However, one of the many angles of this discussion is in regards to how short and often unsevere the weather often is in parts of the UK. Hence, why such laws have never been necessary, in the UK. I'd guess that as much as 50% or more of drivers in the UK don't even routinely check their tyres (pressures, tread, sidewalls etc) in preparation for winter.

Maybe as many as 20 to 30% of people in the UK, may not even know that there are such things as winter tyres!!! Let alone have a £300 to £500 set on stand by, or change over during certain months. On the forum we all know about winter tyres, because we obviously are car enthusiasts and also those out in the sticks, or with routine journeys into weather exposed areas, collectively we in general tend to be more clued up about such issues.

However, for the rest who see 0,3, 5 or even 10 days of snow, any extra care or safety provisions which they make during this time is a bonus. For most that means that they just 'make do' with whatever the current tyres are on their car. Generally in the UK..on a front wheel drive car, yes winter tyres on the front only is good.....all 4 even better, but not vital!! On a rear whel drive then I'd say it should be all 4 so that you have grip and steering!!

Bottom line....is based on your car and the weather conditions where you live/travel during winter....equip you car to suit your safe driving needs.

Edited 23 December, 2009 by grobster

[Gers]

Winter tyres as a law would never be passed in winter, no matter what the weather conditions over the year dictated.

They can't even enforce 100% of drivers with road tax or inurance in UK.

[foo]

They can't even enforce 100% of drivers with road tax or inurance in UK.

They can enforce it. They just cant police it.

[Anthony 1]

many of the detractors of winter tyres only see them as being of benefit in snow. Winter tyres give additional grip on ice, have better water clearing properties, have less aquaplaning tendencies. Ordinary tyres frictional properties deteriorate rapidly below 4 C, a winter temperature that is common throughout he winter months. Winter tyres would prevent many accidents and deaths.

Although winter tyres are not just about not getting stuck it would remove for ever those ridiculous scenes that we see so commonly on TV showing miles upon miles of stuck vehicles. How many even on this motoring forum, carry warm clothing, sensible footwear sleeping bag or duvet, blanket, water or other drinks, snacks, chocolate, shovel tow rope, shackles. Many do not even carry a warm coat or sensible footwear. Thats their problem, sure but children are often caught in some of these cars why should they be put at risk.

Just imagine your traveling along a road, perhaps even with snow tyres because your sensible and some idiot just side swipes your vehicle or worse because they have summer tyres on.

Just imagine that your traveling along a road miles from anywhere you may have the best winter tyres on you get caught up in a traffic jam of huge proportions and it is impossible to turn around or illegal to do so. Perhaps you end up stuck and spending a night or two on the road with no food or warm clothing, your car low on fuel. Latter you find out that the jam and all the discomfort was caused by people not having winter tyres on.

The law needs to be changed to make it mandatory, just as it is in some other EU countries, that winter tyres or similar are a legal requirement during the winter months. Not to do so will cost the economy £ billions in lost work hours, medical resources police and rescue force manpower and so on.

Their is little excuse plenty spend loads of money on all sorts of other trivia, radios and all sorts of other less important bits and pieces. It is or was possible to buy cheap remold winter tyres which are perfectly satisfactory.

Edited 24 December, 2009 by Anthony 1

[briwy]

I think a lot of this comes down to common sense and learning to drive in the snow. Without being ageist, anyone under about thirty five will not have much experience of snow conditions. Like someone said previously, if you're losing the back end you're generally going too fast.

Yes, obviously four winter tyres will give better grip than only two on the front. However, I have used winter tyres on the front only only when I used to run Minis (now have company cars and lease companies dont take kindly to swapping things round) and I never had a problem.

Also, using chains on the front wheels (which could be likened to fitting winter tyres ie more grip) on the Octavia I have never had a problem. If it was such a large problem then thousands of people every year in ski areas would be regularly off the road.

Incidentally, is there a possible insurance problem here. As I understand it insurance companies do not like cars to be fitted with different tyres to the standard ones??

[dan_the_v8man]

I wish id got winter tyres, not so much for the traction when getting off the line, but even on clear roads, when the temp is down at 0 deg C its like driving in the wet but on dry roads the grip is that poor!

[vRSy]

I think a lot of this comes down to common sense and learning to drive in the snow. Without being ageist, anyone under about thirty five will not have much experience of snow conditions. Like someone said previously, if you're losing the back end you're generally going too fast.

Yes, obviously four winter tyres will give better grip than only two on the front. However, I have used winter tyres on the front only only when I used to run Minis (now have company cars and lease companies dont take kindly to swapping things round) and I never had a problem.

Also, using chains on the front wheels (which could be likened to fitting winter tyres ie more grip) on the Octavia I have never had a problem. If it was such a large problem then thousands of people every year in ski areas would be regularly off the road.

Incidentally, is there a possible insurance problem here. As I understand it insurance companies do not like cars to be fitted with different tyres to the standard ones??

im 10 years younger than that mate, and have proably driven in snow more than most. joys of being in germany before where they have proper winters. although it does look like the winters are getting slowly worse in UK now.

completely agree with you about losing the back end is probably down to driving to fast for the conditions, however braking in the snow on a bend(due to toher traffic or problem etc) and the back can quite easily step out.

ive only ever used chains once and that was when driving into the harz mountains to go skiing, but that was still a nightmare though. I dont think the UK has recieved anything severe enough to call for snow chains yet. and if it had you proabably shouldnt be out in those conditions.

[Gers]

I think he was referring to as an option instead of winter tyres. However, unless there is a decent layer of snow on the road, that wouldn't be a good idea.

Not only is it not good for the road, on a personal side, they wouldn't be good for your tyres.

Probably a temporary solution would be those snow socks, but they don't have the same traction as snow chains and they too must be removed when there is a lack of snow, otherwise they would be worn out very quickly.

Edited 24 December, 2009 by Gers

[grobster]

many of the detractors of winter tyres only see them as being of benefit in snow. Winter tyres give additional grip on ice, have better water clearing properties, have less aquaplaning tendencies. Ordinary tyres frictional properties deteriorate rapidly below 4 C, a winter temperature that is common throughout he winter months. Winter tyres would prevent many accidents and deaths.

Although winter tyres are not just about not getting stuck it would remove for ever those ridiculous scenes that we see so commonly on TV showing miles upon miles of stuck vehicles. How many even on this motoring forum, carry warm clothing, sensible footwear sleeping bag or duvet, blanket, water or other drinks, snacks, chocolate, shovel tow rope, shackles. Many do not even carry a warm coat or sensible footwear. Thats their problem, sure but children are often caught in some of these cars why should they be put at risk.

Just imagine your traveling along a road, perhaps even with snow tyres because your sensible and some idiot just side swipes your vehicle or worse because they have summer tyres on.

Just imagine that your traveling along a road miles from anywhere you may have the best winter tyres on you get caught up in a traffic jam of huge proportions and it is impossible to turn around or illegal to do so. Perhaps you end up stuck and spending a night or two on the road with no food or warm clothing, your car low on fuel. Latter you find out that the jam and all the discomfort was caused by people not having winter tyres on.

The law needs to be changed to make it mandatory, just as it is in some other EU countries, that winter tyres or similar are a legal requirement during the winter months. Not to do so will cost the economy £ billions in lost work hours, medical resources police and rescue force manpower and so on.

Their is little excuse plenty spend loads of money on all sorts of other trivia, radios and all sorts of other less important bits and pieces. It is or was possible to buy cheap remold winter tyres which are perfectly satisfactory.

I whole heartedly couldn't agree more with many of the posts such as this one.

Without getting on a downer, we've got to recognise that today's society is part of the problem. We have local council's who have removed grit bins, to save a few thousand quid per region, yet lost work costs the country's economy millions, injuries from slipping over burden and cost the health system millions, and of course car accidents increase our insurance premiums collectively by millions each year.

However, our councils, public sectors workers and goverments don't want to, or are no longer are allowed to look at it this way!!

Many individuals, are just as bad!! These days, we have every other person going to the gym 3 or 4 times a week some for health reasons...most because it's fashionable. But will they do 30 minutes of excercise by clearing the snow from the paths or streets where they live.....very rarely......it's easier to leave it to someone else. When it's done they'll be able to jump in the car to go to the local shop, to save them from having to walk there.

Yes, it's the same people who will spend a grand on a car radio, £100 on a pair of jeans, £7 a pint when drinking bottled beer, £6k more for a badge on a car. I have little faith to then expect that they will be able to engage their brain correctly, or logically, when it comes to driving or equping themselves to be safe in the snow. These are the same people that we've then got to convince about how good snow tyres are a better investment than a set of P-Zero's!!

Edited 24 December, 2009 by grobster

[Anthony 1]

I whole heartedly couldn't agree more with many of the posts such as this one.

Without getting on a downer, we've got to recognise that today's society is part of the problem. We have local council's who have removed grit bins, to save a few thousand quid per region, yet lost work costs the country's economy millions, injuries from slipping over burden and cost the health system millions, and of course car accidents increase our insurance premiums collectively by millions each year.

However, our councils, public sectors workers and goverments don't want to, or are no longer are allowed to look at it this way!!

Many individuals, are just as bad!! These days, we have every other person going to the gym 3 or 4 times a week some for health reasons...most because it's fashionable. But will they do 30 minutes of excercise by clearing the snow from the paths or streets where they live.....very rarely......it's easier to leave it to someone else. When it's done they'll be able to jump in the car to go to the local shop, to save them from having to walk there.

Yes, it's the same people who will spend a grand on a car radio, £100 on a pair of jeans, £7 a pint when drinking bottled beer, £6k more for a badge on a car. I have little faith to then expect that they will be able to engage their brain correctly, or logically, when it comes to driving or equping themselves to be safe in the snow. These are the same people that we've then got to convince about how good snow tyres are a better investment than a set of P-Zero's!!

I fully endorse your comments grobster,

We do indeed regretfully live in a selfish, self indulgent age, materialistic to the full. Health Authorities Public and Civil Service are for the Good of All, paid for from the taxation from other sources. We too have had our salt bins removed. I did not notice them going. I was traveling on a back road to the nearest village with a shovel to spread out the salt on a dangerous bend on a steep section. I can manage it with a 4x4 but many can not and I can see an accident happening sooner or latter. So it is not just Scroogey old Ceredigion that removes them then, it is country wide?

£100 for a pair of jeans, wow, mine cost £3 from Tesco your spot on with your analysis.

I think that is why the EU and our Government will need to force the use of winter tyres. They can do it, they can enforce it. They just need enough public support and a bit of a shove. Surely those in power can see the benefits, not only to reduce accidents, save lost work but it would be a little shot in the arm for the tyre manufacturers and auto industry also. Let us all heave on a shovel too!

``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` When I arrived I could not find the bin

[briwy]

I'm not advocating the use of chains as an alternative to snow tyres here in the Uk or elsewhere, merely pointing out that having more grip on two wheels at the front doesn't mean that you are going to have an off at the first corner.

After all, on a front wheel drive car, which is what we are talking about here, the drive, steering and most of the braking is done on the front wheels.

If you want to fit all four with snow tyres fine but don't be put off just fitting just the front only.