Bosch SKT5102GB - design/quality issues

[Clunkclick]

My Bosch table top dishwasher, purchased new at the beginning of May last year, has just gone unserviceable after 10 months of once-a-day use.

http://www.comet.co.uk/shopcomet/product/176206/BOSCH-SKT5102

I suspect that the main motor which supplies a pressurised water flow to the rotor arm in the washer cabinet has failed as the machine is not washing items placed in it.. There's a loud humming noise when timer reaches the wash part of the cycle (Broken motor windings ?) Everything else appears to be OK, i.e.fill and drain and timer.

Obviously still under manufacturers warranty and, as it was bought from John Lewis it has an extended partial warranty into the second year.

After phoning John Lewis Direct who provideed the warranty, gave up waiting for them to phone me back with details of the repair arrangements. So got on to Bosch an arranged an engineer visit - Brent Cross store referred me to Bosch.

I have to say I'm not impressed with Bosch. This machine is more expensive than some full-size units. This is the second machine of this model I have had in which the main pump has failed, after a period of use which I regard as less than a full-service life. The first one, purchased in 2003, the motor failed in 2006 and was replaced at cost to me and the machine went on till 2009 when the timer failed. I believe that these motors have been value engineered to the point of absurdity meaning that they always run slightly overheated and it is this which causes the windings to pop.

http://www.4bosch.co.uk/cgi-bin/product.pl?PID=1219934&brand=&model=SKT5102∂=

Given that the motor is £110 + VAT and labour to fit is £100 + VAT per hour, if the motor fails outside warranty , as was the case with my previous machine, it makes more sense to buy new @ £320 then to get it repaired - even though the case and the rest of the internals are in good shape. Rather like Dyson, since the manufacturing arm moved to the Far East, expect to have to replace the machine every 2-3 years, making the cost of doing the washing-up (With detergent etc) £0.50 per occasion. Plainly ridiculous.

I would expect a reasonable life for white goods to be at least 7 years.

European design and manufacturing standards in consumer appliances are poor in contrast to the Japs - my last Sony TV lasted 20 years.

I note on this most recent model that Bosch had tried to reduce manufacturing costs even further by excluding features available on the predecessor e.g. the Power "On" lamp. I understand that they have now produced a replacement model.

http://www.comet.co.uk/shopcomet/product/569925/BOSCH-SKS40E02GB

Which ups the price £20 over its predecessor. I wonder how reliable this is going to be ?

Hardly an eco-friendly manufacturing policy or one that has cost appeal to the customer.Yet their marketing arm will bust their b*lls to tell us how little water their latest machines are using ! Even less when the machines u/s !

Have I been exceptionally "Unlucky" or is this the standard you can expect nowadays ?

Nick

Edited 29 March, 2010 by Clunkclick

[Aspman]

Nothing is made to last these days. And the price of labour is enough write off most home appliances.

[Clunkclick]

Nothing is made to last these days. And the price of labour is enough write off most home appliances.

White goods now have a reputation for poor quality only exceeded by Microsoft - that takes some doing.

Legislation. Legislation. Legislation - across the EU. That's whats needed.

Undermining the Sale of Goods legislation in the late 1990s by the UK Parliament when it introduced the concept of "Reasonable quality" as opposed to "Merchantable quality" embodied in the 1893 Act didn't help.

You want to cut the carbon footprint of the UK - lose a few marketeers and extend product life cycles.

I can remember in the 60s and 70s when domestic appliances used to last 15-20 years.

If the output of global capitalism can't make the ordinary joes life better, what *ffing use is it ? And talking of third world standards, I'm off to the river, with a mouthful of Paan, to take a dump (upstream) and then batter my washing on a stone (Downstream). You know it makes sense.

Nick

Edited 29 March, 2010 by Clunkclick

[Aspman]

You want to cut the carbon footprint of the UK - lose a few marketeers and extend product life cycles.

Nick

Too true. When did you ever hear someone say that to reduce our carbon footprint and/or landfill we should insist on appliances that last longer and are easier/cheaper to service?

Nooooo you have to go out and buy the latest AAA rated white goods, made to such a tight tolerance that it goes fubar after 13 months when one if it's biodegradable chips decides to decompose.

Don't drive far, pay your green taxes, compost your children but for god's sake don't stop buying stuff! Think of the oligarchs.

[ap0gee1978]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8253915.stm

HTH

['daiking']

Don't drive far, pay your green taxes, compost your children but for god's sake don't stop buying stuff! Think of the oligarchs.

Oligarch and sun-dried tomato foccacia, my favourite

Not the first time I've heard that about Bosch, they are seemingly not what they once were.

I believe there is a sizable niche to be filled in the production of electro-mechanical devices for the consumer market. Function over form, good quailty, durable goods, easily repaired and where required, upgraded and best of all manufactured in the uk.

never going to happen

Edited 29 March, 2010 by daiking

[jrw]

You get 2 years warranty with Bosch anyway so JL one is worthless in this case! You also have the SOGA to back you up as it looks to be an inherrent fault or design flaw.

[cheezemonkhai]

You get 2 years warranty with Bosch anyway so JL one is worthless in this case! You also have the SOGA to back you up as it looks to be an inherrent fault or design flaw.

FWIW JL state that large white goods they sell will coem with a minimum 2 years warranty. If it's only 1 from the manufacturer then they top you up, if it's 2 it's 2, if it's more it's more.

They don't charge for it on top of the sticker price anyway, so I don't think it's a bad deal.

[jrw]

Great so the OP has in fact 3 years warranty!

[cheezemonkhai]

Great so the OP has in fact 3 years warranty!

The OP will have a minimum of 2, unless the manufacturer gives a longer one.

[jrw]

The OP will have a minimum of 2, unless the manufacturer gives a longer one.

That makes no sense - you just said that JL top up the warranty so it will give an extra year. Bosch gives 2years so JL will give you an extra year which = 3years?!

[cheezemonkhai]

That makes no sense - you just said that JL top up the warranty so it will give an extra year. Bosch gives 2years so JL will give you an extra year which = 3years?!

No I didn't.

I said

FWIW JL state that large white goods they sell will come with a minimum 2 years warranty. If it's only 1 from the manufacturer then they top you up, if it's 2 it's 2, if it's more it's more.

They don't charge for it on top of the sticker price anyway, so I don't think it's a bad deal.

If Manufacturer = 1 year they top you up to 2 years total

If Manufacturer = 2 years or more you get just that.

As I said, JL state that large white goods come with a minimum 2 years warranty.

So if it is only 1 year from the manufacturer, they will top you up to 2 years. If it is 2 or more then you already have 2 or more years and they don't unless they say so at the sale.

[Clunkclick]

Just been on the Bosch website and read the "Customer Service" PDF. Yes it does say that they provide a two year warranty, but that the exercise of rights for the second year is dependent on the return of the guarentee card.

I'm usually meticulous about these things, but I can't locate a copy of the guarentee card (either paper or electronic) amongst my retained appliance documentation.

However, I do have guarentee documentation from John Lewis Direct saying that they provide "In addition to the first year manufacturer's guarentee, a free second year guarentee, plus accidental damage cover and ......subject to the terms and conditions". The lCustomer Service lady I spoke to at Bosch did say that sight of this letter by the attending Bosch engineer would be sufficient to ensure that I did not have to pay for the repair. We will see !

Would I be right in concluding that, by pre-arrangement, the guarentee card would not be included in John Lewis supplied machines and that the John Lewis Direct letter would confirm my entitlement to the First Year manufacturer's guarentee ? - interesting one. Presumably the passage of rights from Bosch to me would have to take place via the mechanism of the supply agreement ( Job lot) between Bosch and John Lewis. This latter agreement would be commercially confidential and therefore not available for general distribution - If push came to shove, I might have to go to court to establish the existence of guarentee rights with Bosch, although I would imagine that the industry standard contract must have a specific term to allow these rights to flow down to me.

So much for the legal niceties.

Anyway, engineer turned up today, and I fully expected that the machine would be repaired there and then as it is just a simple part fitting job - took the last bloke about an hour inclusive of post-repair testing. No such luck. The bloke spent half and hour playing with the controls (The machine was still connected to services) and diagnosed what I had already told them over the phone three days earlier that the motor for the pressurised water supply to the wash rotor had gone. To be specific, the bearings on the motor have worn causing it to run-outside tolerances and seize.

He hadn't got the part on board (Unlike the earlier chappy who fixed the identical fault on the predecessor machine) and would have to order it and said he would return in a week to fit it. He couldn't take the machine away with him to fix it, but was able, after "Consulting the office" to narrow down the fitting date to a morning instead of a whole day. And, 'cause the machine was in a "Difficult location", I would have to uncouple it from the services and move it into my front room where there is more space. Talk about have a dog and bark yourself. Got the impression that this guy was either a franchisee or independent subby.

It would be interesting to know whose T &C s the machine is being repaired under cause the Bosch Customer Service PDF says that Bosch should provide a service response within two days and hold a parts inventory in the vans which covers 97% of requirements Hmmm ? So, non-compliant on those two . . . "Kill them ".

So, at the moment, the Customer Satisfactionometer has departed average, passed through "Slightly peeved" and is moving steadily towards "Disgruntled", no doubt en- route to "Completely P*ssed-off". And, no doubt, at the end of the process, I will be compelled to complete a questionaire full of leading questions confirming that "P*ssed-off" in Customer Service speak really means completely contented with a warm fuzzy feeling.

And this is supposed to be a service economy. They just don't know the meaning of the word.

Postscript.

Oh **** just thumbing through the documentation and found the gaurentee card - uncompleted. I must have been well and truly distracted that week. Hopefully they will honour it as long as I've got Proof of purchase.

Nick

Edited 1 April, 2010 by Clunkclick

[cheezemonkhai]

Just been on the Bosch website and read the "Customer Service" PDF. Yes it does say that they provide a two year warranty, but that the exercise of rights for the second year is dependent on the return of the guarentee card.

I'm usually meticulous about these things, but I can't locate a copy of the guarentee card (either paper or electronic) amongst my retained appliance documentation.

If I'm right, then good news, as far as I remember that one doesn't stand up in the UK and they have to provide the second year warranty regardless of you sending the card back to them or not.

However, I do have guarentee documentation from John Lewis Direct saying that they provide "In addition to the first year manufacturer's guarentee, a free second year guarentee, plus accidental damage cover and ......subject to the terms and conditions". The lCustomer Service lady I spoke to at Bosch did say that sight of this letter by the attending Bosch engineer would be sufficient to ensure that I did not have to pay for the repair. We will see !

Would I be right in concluding that, by pre-arrangement, the guarentee card would not be included in John Lewis supplied machines and that the John Lewis Direct letter would confirm my entitlement to the First Year manufacturer's guarentee ? - interesting one. Presumably the passage of rights from Bosch to me would have to take place via the mechanism of the supply agreement ( Job lot) between Bosch and John Lewis. This latter agreement would be commercially confidential and therefore not available for general distribution - If push came to shove, I might have to go to court to establish the existence of guarentee rights with Bosch, although I would imagine that the industry standard contract must have a specific term to allow these rights to flow down to me.

So much for the legal niceties.

JL engineers have always been really good for us and I've not had to pay for a repair inside of warranty, or even had anyone try to make me pay for a claim.

Anyway, engineer turned up today, and I fully expected that the machine would be repaired there and then as it is just a simple part fitting job - took the last bloke about an hour inclusive of post-repair testing. No such luck. The bloke spent half and hour playing with the controls (The machine was still connected to services) and diagnosed what I had already told them over the phone three days earlier that the motor for the pressurised water supply to the wash rotor had gone. To be specific, the bearings on the motor have worn causing it to run-outside tolerances and seize.

He hadn't got the part on board (Unlike the earlier chappy who fixed the identical fault on the predecessor machine) and would have to order it and said he would return in a week to fit it. He couldn't take the machine away with him to fix it, but was able, after "Consulting the office" to narrow down the fitting date to a morning instead of a whole day. And, 'cause the machine was in a "Difficult location", I would have to uncouple it from the services and move it into my front room where there is more space. Talk about have a dog and bark yourself. Got the impression that this guy was either a franchisee or independent subby.

It would be interesting to know whose T &C s the machine is being repaired under cause the Bosch Customer Service PDF says that Bosch should provide a service response within two days and hold a parts inventory in the vans which covers 97% of requirements Hmmm ? So, non-compliant on those two . . . "Kill them ".

So, at the moment, the Customer Satisfactionometer has departed average, passed through "Slightly peeved" and is moving steadily towards "Disgruntled", no doubt en- route to "Completely P*ssed-off". And, no doubt, at the end of the process, I will be compelled to complete a questionaire full of leading questions confirming that "P*ssed-off" in Customer Service speak really means completely contented with a warm fuzzy feeling.

And this is supposed to be a service economy. They just don't know the meaning of the word.

Sounds like a right jobsworth. I wonder if they get paid twice for making two trips rather than one

PS Write to Bosch in Germany, they seem to care.

[Kentish]

LOL............. the machine is under a year old and therefore proof or purchase is all that is required. The second year is their way of obtaining details to push through a third party warranty for the following years, but registration is required for the second year.

Dishwasher motors don't just have faulty bearings after 10 months.. Chances are you don't put enough salt into the softenor and so the motor seals have been attacked by the hard water and allowed leakage through the seals into the bearing. (If you live in a soft water area then most probably failed seals). As you say you have had motor issues befor with your dishwasher suggests you don't use enough salt......do you wait for the oil light to come on before checking your engine for oil ? I thought not.

White goods are what we the public will pay for. Machines used to last as they were more expensive in real terms. Machines now are built to the price the public will pay. If you want a better quality machine then pay more for something like a Miele.

In any case, the 2 machines you offer through those links originally are 2 different machines.....the first being the original German table top unit, the second looks like the Electrolux group style, but seeing as there is another non-EU make producing a similar product then your guess.

It's good to know that you will only use the manufacturere for your repairs (does that apply to all things you own?) rather than using a good and reliable third party who would charge a fraction of those labour costs.

Anyway, back to the motor.......the base of the dishwasher should be checked for any wet marks under the motor, and the motor casing inspected for scale marks. If there are any, the water softenor should ideally be replaced as well. You don't change the engine oil without changing the oil filter.

[Clunkclick]

LOL............. the machine is under a year old and therefore proof or purchase is all that is required. The second year is their way of obtaining details to push through a third party warranty for the following years, but registration is required for the second year.

Dishwasher motors don't just have faulty bearings after 10 months.. Chances are you don't put enough salt into the softenor and so the motor seals have been attacked by the hard water and allowed leakage through the seals into the bearing. (If you live in a soft water area then most probably failed seals). As you say you have had motor issues befor with your dishwasher suggests you don't use enough salt......do you wait for the oil light to come on before checking your engine for oil ? I thought not.

White goods are what we the public will pay for. Machines used to last as they were more expensive in real terms. Machines now are built to the price the public will pay. If you want a better quality machine then pay more for something like a Miele.

In any case, the 2 machines you offer through those links originally are 2 different machines.....the first being the original German table top unit, the second looks like the Electrolux group style, but seeing as there is another non-EU make producing a similar product then your guess.

It's good to know that you will only use the manufacturere for your repairs (does that apply to all things you own?) rather than using a good and reliable third party who would charge a fraction of those labour costs.

Anyway, back to the motor.......the base of the dishwasher should be checked for any wet marks under the motor, and the motor casing inspected for scale marks. If there are any, the water softenor should ideally be replaced as well. You don't change the engine oil without changing the oil filter.

I'm in a very hard water area - water comes from the Chiltern Hills, north of London, so high in calcium carbonate. However, the water softener has a variable control which has always been set to the rating supplied on the water companies (Three valleys) website - one short of the max setting. When the previous model went U/S I took the case-off and had a look. Can't recall seeing any leaks/chalky deposits on the case immediately under the motor.

The machine is run on Finish detegent/rinse agent/salt and is properply cleaned out every two months - filters removed and cleaned and complete cycle run using Finish dishwasher cleaner.

Also water supply is electromagentically conditioned, which certainly reduces scale deposits on taps etc.

I'm sure its just duff design/materials/production of motor bearing - it could be just one chimp on the production line not putting the apppropriate type/quantity of lubricant on the bearing when its assembled. Not that you can normally expect this sort of thing to happen in mass -produced items . . . . cough . . . .Toyota.

In a high intensity production environment ****-ups are easily done and propogated and manufacturers don't want the expense of re-tooling/re-training if ithe fault is down to them.

Just have to recall the cylinder head gasket leaks on the number 1 cylinder of 4 cylinder Golfs or leaky doors on the Fabia.

In my youth I went round the Hoover factory went its was in Perivale, West London (Now a Tescos store) and was amazed at the speed at which things were hand -assembled. The sight of the operator controlling and guiding a machine to build the motor windings on conventional electric motor was a sight truly to behold.

If Miele did a table top then I'd go for them, but they don't. It's either Bosch or Zanussi for table tops - there in lies the problem, no competition.

What I can't understand is the fact that in allowing a fault to subsist, especially on an entry level model, is BAD marketing. You are p*ssing-off people who, in the fullness of time, will progress to fullsize kit and be your future customer base. Why kick-off by putting them -off your brand ?

Perhaps, I should up the softener setting to max once its repaired.

Nick

Edited 5 April, 2010 by Clunkclick

[Kentish]

The water softenor should be on the max setting already. You should also be refilling the salt chamber back to max weekly so as when you forget to top it up the salt is still present in enough quantities to be able to clean the resin within the softenor. Ignore also the junk the multi tabs spout......you still need salt regardless.

Knowing that 95% of all dishwasher faults are salt related (and that is from 28 yrs in the srevice game), and you saying your previous model also had 2 motors within a short period tells me that salt is not being put in as much as you need to. Yes you get odd lemons, but 2 seperate machines needing 3 motors withing not too long a time in total tells the story.

Dishwasher cleaners are not needed if the softenor is being flushed through correctly as the detergent would be able to dissolve and remove all grease and stains, so you can see why I say "salt, salt,salt"

As far as tha mchine being entry level, it's not. It is a niche market machine and one day will be binned altogether as the costs of production over volume sold mean it is an expensive item for what it is. They will go the same way as the top loading washing machines, trust me.

I would suggest that when the Appliance Care engineer comes to fix the dishwasher, quiz him on the softenor and check the motor. If the impellor turns freely then you can say the windings are probably at fault (very rare), if however the impellor is siezed or tight then you have to ask "why", and seeing as the motor seal is a mechanical seal (ceramic disc on carbon spring face) the water not being softened correctly must be looked at.

For more possible proof.....when the dishwasher was going, did you get white clouding on your glasses or staining not being removed from cup etc?

[Clunkclick]

The water softenor should be on the max setting already. You should also be refilling the salt chamber back to max weekly so as when you forget to top it up the salt is still present in enough quantities to be able to clean the resin within the softenor. Ignore also the junk the multi tabs spout......you still need salt regardless.

Knowing that 95% of all dishwasher faults are salt related (and that is from 28 yrs in the srevice game), and you saying your previous model also had 2 motors within a short period tells me that salt is not being put in as much as you need to. Yes you get odd lemons, but 2 seperate machines needing 3 motors withing not too long a time in total tells the story.

Dishwasher cleaners are not needed if the softenor is being flushed through correctly as the detergent would be able to dissolve and remove all grease and stains, so you can see why I say "salt, salt,salt"

As far as tha mchine being entry level, it's not. It is a niche market machine and one day will be binned altogether as the costs of production over volume sold mean it is an expensive item for what it is. They will go the same way as the top loading washing machines, trust me.

I would suggest that when the Appliance Care engineer comes to fix the dishwasher, quiz him on the softenor and check the motor. If the impellor turns freely then you can say the windings are probably at fault (very rare), if however the impellor is siezed or tight then you have to ask "why", and seeing as the motor seal is a mechanical seal (ceramic disc on carbon spring face) the water not being softened correctly must be looked at.

For more possible proof.....when the dishwasher was going, did you get white clouding on your glasses or staining not being removed from cup etc?

Slight correction to the above, my previous dishwasher, bought 2003, survived until 2009 and had one main motor + timer replacement. The motor there went after 3 years. My pattern of usuage and treatment of the machine has not changed once a day usuage, the occasional heavily soiled item is hand-washed beforehand and the machine subject to a major clean out every two months.

And no, there is no heavy film wash residues and calcium carbonate/sulphate on crockery and glassware after each wash.

I do keep the salt level topped-up. I may be wrong, but I wouldn't have thought that there would not be a calcium deposit build-up round the impeller as the water at this location is turbulent. Generally, items in solution tend to drop out of solution and form deposits in still or slow moving water conditions. Only if the solution is super-saturated with a chemical would deposits form in moving water - as there's no film on the crockery after a wash, I conclude its not supersaturated.

Even if there was a calicum salt build-up at the impeller location, it would have to be fairly substantial to make the impeller run out-of-balance and wear the bearings. The impeller that was taken out of the first machine I had when the motor was replaced was clean-as-a-whistle.

Is it the case that dosing with too much salt could cause a problem ? The salt is there to "Soften" the water i.e. remove the calcium carbonate and other dissolved salts in the water. Would the chemicals in the salt, in the absence of calcium, start electro phoretically exchanging with the substance of o-ring seals on components leading to a breach in water containment ? A bit like the effect of synthetic oil on some carburation seals in car engines.

Interesting the main motor survival times:- machine No 1, Motor No 1 . . . . 3 years (failed)

Machine No 1, Motor No 2 . . . . 3 years and still serviceable (Timer failed)

Machine No 2, Motor No 1 . . . . .10 months (Failed)

Those are the sort of MTBF stats that suggest quality control is not within 1 statistical standard deviation of target.

Seems to me that it could be a quality control issue with the subby whose supplying the motor.

I think its a bearing problem - the bearing nearest the impeller. Interestingly, even though the motor is a high current item and is positoned at the lowest point in the cabinet, where all water leaking from the cabinet and other devices would naturally trcikle down to, the motor has NO PROTECTIVE CASING. You'd have thought that in order to get an import license and type approval by the relevant authority that the motor would have to have a fully enclosing case and be DOUBLE INSULATED or be positioned high up the casing and remote from the sump. Also the dishwasher chassis and casing cladding are also all metal. So no chance there of the customer being electrocuted by an arcing seized motor. Not good.

Things are looking-up now. The engineer turned-up.

But was unable to replace the motor because he claimed that the motor he hadbrought with him was not new and was probably faulty - the box was open and the part looked used.

The part takes a week to order from Milton Keynes and service engineers are not allowed to go to a local shop and buy the part retail.

So that's a flexi-day wasted. So, i've had to arrange another day for next Tuesday.

Wonder what the current national total figure for lost man-days is for firm and customer when this sort of thing happens.

A bit of a contrast to the last time when the same problem was fixed in one visit. So far, I've had one engineer to diagnose, and one to attempt fix the fault - a sign of the changed economic circumstances since 2006.

As you say, it may be an end-of-line product with low sales volume, but nobody twisted Bosch's arm to convince them to make and market this product, and neither John Lewis or Bosch were backward in coming foward to relieve me of the dosh to meet the £320 price tag. Corporate ethics, Corporate ethics . . . .

Customer Satisfactionometer now at DeFcon "Disgruntled".

Nick

Edited 8 April, 2010 by Clunkclick

[Kentish]

Salt does not soften the water, the chemical resin draws the water impurities and thus softens the water. The salt is used to flush the resin clean, but hey ho.

You crack on, as I can clearly see that you know far more about how a dishwasher actually works than I. :wonder:

[Clunkclick]

Salt does not soften the water, the chemical resin draws the water impurities and thus softens the water. The salt is used to flush the resin clean, but hey ho.

You crack on, as I can clearly see that you know far more about how a dishwasher actually works than I. :wonder:

Wasn't meaning to contest what you said. I was under the impression that the salt operated rather like soap to cause hardness to precipitate out of solution. In fact, looking at this american site confirms what you just said i.e. the resin does the softening (By making the calcium stay in solution ?) and the salt replenishes the resins capability to do this:-

http://home.howstuffworks.com/question99.htm

I'd appreciate your view on a reasonable service life for the resin. I presume it can't go on for ever being replensihed by the salt ?

Changing tack completely, I'd be interested to know whether do you think that the service I've got from Bosch so far is satisfactory i.e two visits and still no repair, turning up with a faulty part ? Sounds like a right load of BS to me.

Nick

Edited 9 April, 2010 by Clunkclick

[Clunkclick]

Engineer called and replaced motor. Tested and all OK.

Looks like water had leaked past the plastic seal separating the impeller from the motor and had got into the motor bearings causing the spindle to partially seize. Motor windings seemed OK.

I'm amazed all this happened after 9.5 months of use. Though the screeching noise (When the motor operated) that started about a month after I bought the machine should have given me a clue - water was obviously penetrating the seal and getting into the bearings.

The motor is massive (3" long, 2.5" wide and 2" deep and weighs 4lbs !!!!!!) and, as can be seen, it is open sided. If they made the sides solid it would probably weigh 5lbs.

http://cid-418678e3400e614e.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Home/20100413-Faulty%5E_Bosch%5E_Dishwasher%5E_Motor.jpg#resId/418678E3400E614E!215

As you can see the motor casing (silver) is well encrusted at the impeller (Black) end with salts from the wash water.

Side view (Below) shows no-build-up of deposits on the impeller (Black bit) but heavy deposits between the sump seal (white) and the motor casing (siver) - Left-to-Right it goes impeller, sump seal and then motor

http://cid-418678e3400e614e.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Home/20100413-Faulty%5E_Bosch%5E_Dishwasher%5E_Motor.jpg#resId/418678E3400E614E!216

The two possibilities are that the leak goes down the centre spindle connecting impeller to motor (Unlikely) or that it leaks beteen the outside edge of the seal and the plastic sump into which the motor seal seats - I think its the latter. I think what's happening is that, for some reason the plastic seal is stiffening and shrinking and allowing some leakage. But only after 9 months ? According to the machine serial number it was manufactured in 2009 - perhaps old stock part was drawn from the bin on the day it was made ?

Although the motor is fixed to the sump by two massive bolts/screws, it is such a weight that you can't help but think that gravity would play a part in distorting the seals, if the motor-securing bolts were not done-up properly.

Also, the motor needs four-point as opposed to two point fixing only in the horizontal plane- leak path is strongest on the bottom (unsecured) edge.

Question: Why didn't Bosch's product development team spot this when they were doing life-cycle testing ? Why did the electrical registraion authority (CENELEC ?) spot it before they dispensed theit kite mark equivalent.

Answer: T*ssers.

Also, from memory, I seem to recall that the previous model had a rubber "O" - ring embedded into the seal and there seems to be an indentation in the white seal here to receive a ring- as you can see from the photos its seems to be missing from the motor he took out . I don't think it could have been missed-out in manufacturer without causing serious leakage. Let's hope he hasn't re-installed the old "O" ring.

Engineer confirmed that the resin block does the water softening by capturing the calcium carbonate that is out-of-solution in the wash water and that every so often the machine automatically re-charges the resin by admitting salt solution to flush the calcium debris out. Salt is not the softener. He indicated that the life of the resin was long provided the salt was kept topped-up.

Didn't venture an opinion as to why the seal on the motor failed.

I asked about setting the salt setting to maximum. He said, no.

Nick

Edited 13 April, 2010 by Clunkclick

[Kentish]

Water flows through the salt into the resin chamber (which is normally good for the life of the machine) during every drying cycle (normal practice) not every so often.

The white debris on the motor is scale based, so hard water has been an issue. Water generally gets through the mechanical seal, following the shaft and through the bearing.

You set your water softenor where you want... I know where I set mine and every dishwasher I attend.

You crack on with your speculation and opinions, you won't be the first one who can't see the woods for the trees.

[Clunkclick]

Just interrogated the water database held by my local water supply company Three Rivers (Ex Colne Valley), now called Veoila and it came up with this :-

HARD WATER

The area supplied by Veolia Water Central has 'hard' water. The hardness occurs naturally and is characterised by the presence of high levels of calcium and magnesium, which are good for healthy teeth and bones.

CALCIUM 122 mg/l

Calcium is the principal constituent of hardness.

TOTAL HARDNESS 305 mg/l

Total hardness is usually expressed in terms of calcium carbonate and is measured in milligrammes per litre (mg/l) or parts per million (ppm). The recognised classification scheme we are using is: 0-75 soft, 76-150 moderately hard, 151-300 hard, 300+ very hard.

Your water is very hard.[/u

]

Degrees English (or Clarke) 21

This hardness measurement is used on some British appliances.

Degrees German 17

This is used on some German appliances.

Degrees French 31

This is used on some French appliances.

MILLIMOLS 3.1 mmol/l

Millimols per litre. Some appliances refer to water hardness in millimols per litre (mmol/l).

FLUORIDE 0.172 mg/l

Fluoride naturally occurs in the water in many areas. Veolia Water Central does not add any fluoride to your water. Fluoride is measured in milligrammes per litre (mg/l).

This information is provided as a guide only and is subject to our Terms and Conditions. We recommend you obtain specialist advice and do not rely on the information provided. Always follow the instructions provided with the appliance.

Now, page 6 of the Bosch SKT510 manual states for degrees hardness English (Or Clarke) in the range 5-25 set softening adjuster to 1.

for degree hardness German (dH) in the range 4 -20 set softening adjuster to 1

Two way confimation there that the manufcaturer recommended setting for my area is 1.

There are two more settings above 1, 2 and 3, with respectively degrees hardness english in the range 26-35 and 36-63.

I'm loath to ignore the manufacturers recommendation at the risk of invalidating the guarentee.

Grateful for any advice or comparitors.

Nick

Edited 15 April, 2010 by Clunkclick

[Kentish]

You set it how you want, it matters not to me. I can't be bothered with this anymore, since anything I put down you need to get confirmation. This is a car forum and not a white goods forum. If you want umpteen people to respond and give you lots to get confirmed then visit a white goods forum, and don't be surprised when the answers you get are the same as those given already. It is obvious to me that my 28 years in the trade including 13 years at a manufacturer means I know less than a desk jockey.

[cheezemonkhai]

You set it how you want, it matters not to me. I can't be bothered with this anymore, since anything I put down you need to get confirmation. This is a car forum and not a white goods forum. If you want umpteen people to respond and give you lots to get confirmed then visit a white goods forum, and don't be surprised when the answers you get are the same as those given already. It is obvious to me that my 28 years in the trade including 13 years at a manufacturer means I know less than a desk jockey.

So while you're around then, how hard is 18 degrees of water hardness as I'm just about to set up a new dishwasher and you have options on the salt usage.