1.2 TSI DSG(105) or 1.6 TDI (105)?

[Matty Le Swan]

We will be getting our 1.2TSI 105 DSG on Monday so will comment then.

Hi Runboy,

Have you got yours yet?!!

[seboni121]

I tried the 1.6cr tdi 75bhp today and its better than I thought it would be with just 75 ponies underneath the hood, I will be going for the 105 elegance with extras!

[Guest]

Seb...bear in mind too...that the one you tried today won't have been fully loosened up yet. They take around 10,000 miles to give best power and fuel economy!

[runboy]

Hi Runboy,

Have you got yours yet?!!

We have indeed and there is a new post from me with pics!

Powerfull engine the 105bhp petrol!

[Matty Le Swan]

Well I've just been out on the test drive of the 1.6 TDI CR 105 and unfortunately I loved it.

The demonstrator only had 1400 miles on the clock so it was still tight and felt a little bit unwilling to rev, but when you persisted it didn't half move. It felt really quick and once it was on the move was quite reminiscent of my old Ibiza with a PD130 in it. Definitely a fun car to drive.

I didn't get chance to take it on the motorway as I was on my lunch hour, but on a couple of A Roads I sprinted to 60 and could tell the linear acceleration would have continued way beyond 70.

Whilst at lower revs it did feel sluggish and unwilling to rev, I couldn't believe just how smooth and refined it was at sub 1500 RPM. I would imagine the commute to work being a very easy and economical task, although I can understand how the low bite on the clutch could catch you out causing a stall.

I was very impressed with refinement - it felt every bit as smooth as my C5 and was nearly as quiet which is a big compliment to the Fabia.

Comfort wise it seemed excellent too and the fit and finish of the cabin felt pretty good.

I really loved the engine and the promise of great economy and £30 per year tax appeals and yet, the DPF tales of woe that proliferate this and other forums put me off somewhat.

So after the test drive I am still as undecided as ever. I need to make my mind up quickly though as I don't want to lose the discounts that are currently being offered by Skoda.

Come on guys... give me one amazing reason for buying one or the other!!!!

Oh, the demonstrator was in white and looked stunning - so at least that part of the decision is made!

[Guest]

Matty...here's why I would buy one. And it's not just one good reasons...it's lots.

Firstly though, the DPF thingy! I really wouldn't worry about this. If the instructions in the manual are followed or even if you just drive it normally, you won't ever have a problem. My ex-colleagues in the trade tell me there aren't really any problems with them if you treat the car right. Raisbeck has the Greenline with the 1422cc 3cyl TDI PD engine, and it has the DPF. He has never (I understand from his posts) even had the dash DPF light come on to tell him to give it a run on the motorway. He does have a decent drive to work though every day so that is the secret. Make sure you use your motor and give it a run now and then and all will be well. In fact, many of the woes you read about on the forums, here and on other sites are not really woes at all. Just worries about woes that MIGHT happen. Indeed, I too thought DPF's might be problematic after one or two early DPF's failed. This seems to have been down to poor user handling of the vehicle, not following the instructions laid down in the manual if the dash light comes on. There is no other technology on the horizon that will come in soon as far as I can tell, that would replace the DPF. All new diesels are going to or already have them.

REASONS TO BUY THE 105bhp cr engined Fabia (some of this you will already know)

- If you intend to keep your car a long time, then diesel engines don't wear out as quickly as petrol engines (lots of reasons for that)

- Loads & loads of torque, 80nm extra over the TSI 105 - not dissing the TSI, well just a little bit!

- Huge amounts of Miles Per Gallon, and once run in lots & lots more than the TSI engines - only slightly dissing the TSI

- Massive reduction in CO2 emissions compared to equivalent petrol engines, even the TSI's, continuing to diss the TSI just a tiny bit

- Road Tax only £30 per year

- Diesels are more ready than most petrol engines for the forthcoming changes to fuels due here over the next few years and will run very well on them. Look at the forums in the States and Americas to see what is already happening to european cars sold over their and there petrol engines to see how the bio fuels affect the engines. It ain't pretty! Those fuels will be coming to a garage near you soon in one form or another according to the government. Some petrol engines are not going to like it and the TSI may be one of them. We don't know yet. But it is known that the newer bio fuels in petrol engines shortens their lives and makes them run rough, you get less miles per gallon too. This doesn't seem to be easily overcome as yet but reducing the engines power helps ie: cut the turbo pressure, remap the engine for less power. This is not required on diesels because diesel can be easily made from many sources and remains a genuine diesel fuel, unlike petrol which has to be largely alcohol or ethernol based

- Diesels enhance your sex life (yes this can be true, as girls are impressed with your talk/torque!

This may all sound a bit fluffy...but, according to many of our motor manufacturers around the world, economists, motoring journalists, the diesel engine is going to be supreme over the next couple of decades at least. Now I for one don't mind that. Oh!...did I say, I am totally nuts about diesels but completely unbiased! (yeah right....).

Edited 16 September, 2010 by Estate Man

[raisbeck]

Look at the forums in the States and Americas to see what is already happening to european cars sold over their and there petrol engines to see how the bio fuels affect the engines. It ain't pretty! Those fuels will be coming to a garage near you soon in one form or another according to the government. Some petrol engines are not going to like it and the TSI may be one of them. We don't know yet. But it is known that the newer bio fuels in petrol engines shortens their lives and makes them run rough, you get less miles per gallon too. This doesn't seem to be easily overcome as yet but reducing the engines power helps ie: cut the turbo pressure, remap the engine for less power. This is not required on diesels because diesel can be easily made from many sources and remains a genuine diesel fuel, unlike petrol which has to be largely alcohol or ethernol based

I will add that the Greenline wont run on biodiesel. I think it may be the same for all PD fabias but not sure. Its to do with the biodiesel not producing sufficient heat for dpf regen.........Havent checked my facts properly but there is an issue with biodiesel in PD engines.

I love my diesel and in many ways its superior to my old 1.2 HTP Fabia. That said the petrol IS easier to drive, especially round town. The Greenline is a mile muncher, if your planning on a fair bit of town driving and not too many miles per year get a petrol.

I must excuse Estate Man. He is diesel obsessed

I havent driven the new CR engined cars. I hear they are pretty good. As for DPF woes. I cant imagine they would produce thousands of new diesels (they all have DPF) if in the near future they will all conk out and cost the company a fortune in repairs and bad press. The CR engine is going to be much better at looking after the DPF anyway by its very nature. I almost dont want to try the new CR diesel. If its a lot better than mine I might start wishing I had waited. Years ago I drove tractors....I find the PD rattle at idle rather nostalgic.

Edited 15 September, 2010 by raisbeck

[Adrianh1]

Have been following this debate with interest. Despite the much-improved torque of TSI engines, diesel pulling power still has the edge for every-day tug at low revs (where most of us spend most of our motoring). Refinement is now up to par too. Have you thought about the safety angle? Such deep reserves of power means you can get yourself out of trouble quickly, if you need to. Don't torture yourself. I think you know what you want really.

Good luck with it. A white one sounds fantastic.

[Guest]

I will add that the Greenline wont run on biodiesel. I think it may be the same for all PD fabias but not sure. Its to do with the biodiesel not producing sufficient heat for dpf regen.........Havent checked my facts properly but there is an issue with biodiesel in PD engines.

That said the petrol IS easier to drive, especially round town. The Greenline is a mile muncher, if your planning on a fair bit of town driving and not too many miles per year get a petrol.

I must excuse Estate Man. He is diesel obsessed

Hi Raisbeck...agree with much of what you say. Especially about the DPF's. Thanks for excusing me...I am totally diesel orientated. I too found the Greenline didn't like the town at all and I was put off by it's town driving performance. It was superb in every other way. My standard 1.4TDI is however, no different to any other car petrol or diesel in town...no problems. The 1.6cr engine was very much like a petrol engine in many respects, quietness, smoothness, but hugely more powerful. It would trickle along at 30mph in fourth easily and very quietly. The trip computer was telling me I would be getting 98mpg at that speed after driving like that for some 4 miles. Incidentally, I also drove the 90bhp version and it felt much more powerful than the 1.2TSI engine, not suprising really as it has 230nm of torque really low down. It flew! It's also cheaper than the 105bhp too.

As many of your will know, we are all running some biodiesel in our diesel engines. The amount added per gallon varies from manufacturer to manufacturer but this is between 5-10% of each gallon. The amount of biodiesel in our fuel is currently increasing to meet the governments target of 10% bio fuel in each gallon of diesel sold in the uk within the next 3years. This will then be increased to 15% in the following 5 years. At this point it is anticipated pure biodiesel will be largely available to all and with some adjustments to your engine we can all take advantage of it. It gives more power, smoother, quieter, cleaner running and enhances engine life further. The fuel will be so clean you can actually drink it neat from the pumps. A BBC presenter actually did this on national tv and didn't die! This was at one of the few biofuel stations that currently exist in Norfolk which is taking part in AA & RAC administered trials for commercial vehicles of all sizes. From what I've been told by ex technician colleagues the PD engines will almost certainly run on pure biodiesel but will need to be fettled abit to protect the DPF. If your PD engine doesn't have a DPF then it's the same as for any other diesel engine. Common rail engines will not need much in the way of fettling as they can keep the temperature of exhaust gases at a much higher level if required. The Standard DPF program in the ecu will suffice. PD engines can be made to run on bio by simply altering the second (duess) pump to include just a little more fuel as late as possible on the injection stroke. This will keep up temps. But as yet I haven't read the updated service info that will no doubt be about soon. For the time being, no-one should use pure biodiesel in there car without checking it is safe to do so. Now compare this with what the petrol boys are going to have to put up with when gasohol and other such fuels arrive...then there is no comparison. Trials in this country will no doubt be starting soon all over the country by adding some to existing fuel. It aint going to be pretty so I'm told by folk who know about these things...and may resemble the fiasco of the lead out of petrol days. All interesting stuff.

[Matty Le Swan]

Some great responses there chaps. Many thanks!

I think the most valid point I've heard over the course of this debate was put forward by Estate Man who proclaimed that diesels enhance your sex life. Indeed, it's a truth which can't be denied and as such the decision is made.

A Fabia Estate TDI CR 105 in Elegance trim and White paint it is!

Other extras will be the under seat storage for both front seats, sports suspension and spare wheel.

On a serious note, the thing I enjoyed about the diesel (and I can understand this not being to everybody's taste) is it's dual personality. Below around 1800 rpm, the car didn't want to rev but nor did it want to stall. It just kind of pottered about very smoothly, which should make for a nice lazy commute to and from work. But when cranked up, it was a bit of a hooligan and I really really enjoyed the acceleration. Going from potter mode to "let's 'ave it mode" isn't as seamless as it ought to be, and if you're caught off the boil I would imagine you could be left for dust, but overall I think the car is suited to my relaxed, dare-I-say middle-aged, driving style.

The economy and low CO2 is very appealing too.

I really love the 1.2TSI engine, it's fabulous, but I simply can't kick my diesel addiction.

So, I hope the dealership can do a deal with me today, if not I'll be placing an order on the net tonight.

I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again to everybody who has taken the time respond. I value your opinions.

Matt

Edited 16 September, 2010 by Matty Le Swan

[Mike Wrightson]

Well done Matty, I do like the 1.6 TDI and it obviously goes better in the Fabia than the Octavia. Enjoy !

Good though the TSI's are, they won't match diesel economy or emissions. Since I only do 8k per year, the petrol suits me fine.

[Adrianh1]

You have made the right move. Congratulations. You will also have more grins-per-mile and general satisfaction than TSI owners. Not by a huge margin. But enough to give you a warm glow every time you shift into second gear at 1800rpm. Heck, or at 3,500rpm!

I would be interested to know the in-gear acceleration times of the 1.6 TDI 105 versus the VRS.

Edited 16 September, 2010 by Adrianh1

[Guest]

Brilliant news Matty, very good choice. Although ultimately, I don't think you will go wrong with whatever you buy, diesel or petrol. During my earlier posts I jested somewhat about the TSI engines. But I don't want to give the impression I dislike them. For petrol engines I think they are superb, one of the best yet. I've driven the 105bhp and it did go well, but the economy was much less than I'm used to and the road tax much higher too. If you haggle you can get the 1.6cr for not much more than the TSI. Go get one bud and please keep us up to date on how you get on.

[Guest]

You have made the right move. Congratulations. You will also have more grins-per-mile and general satisfaction than TSI owners. Not by a huge margin. But enough to give you a warm glow every time you shift into second gear at 1800rpm. Heck, or at 3,500rpm!

I would be interested to know the in-gear acceleration times of the 1.6 TDI 105 versus the VRS.

Me too! I'd be surprised if the VRS can match, or even come anywhere near the CR 1.6TDI 105bhp (250nm @1500rpm)...

Edited 16 September, 2010 by Estate Man

[Adrianh1]

250nm at 1,500 rpm? I still think it's quite an achievement for a three cylinder 1.4 TDI (old style pump duse) to muster 195PS.

Oops, I'm getting confused with nm and PS, I think...

Edited 16 September, 2010 by Adrianh1

[DavidY]

If your PD engine doesn't have a DPF then it's the same as for any other diesel engine.

My PD has no DPF and a sticker saying I can't put biodiesel in it - so it's not just DPF issues that cause problems with biodiesel and PDs.

[Guest]

Adrianh1Yes it's confusing. I didn't believe the 1422cc TDI PD could put out 195nm at 2,200rpm either when I first read the spec. Especially as my best mates 2.0 ltr petrol Golf 07 plate, puts out just 170nm at 3,800rpm and 115bhp. It's an absolute slug compared to my Fabia diesel 1.4TDI. So much so that next month my mate is collecting a brand new Fabia with the 90bhp, 230nm common rail diesel in it. He had one for the day and couldn't stop talking about it for days afterwards. He was well impressed. It did 130% more miles per gallon too during his 123mile journey. Just goes to show how much progress has been made eh.

David...your PD engine can be tuned to use bio-diesel. It's just you mustn't use pure bio before having that done. Skoda will issue a service bulletin at the appropriate time as will all manufacturers. The DPF is not going to be an issue as far as we can tell at the moment.

[raisbeck]

your PD engine can be tuned to use bio-diesel. It's just you mustn't use pure bio before having that done. Skoda will issue a service bulletin at the appropriate time as will all manufacturers. The DPF is not going to be an issue as far as we can tell at the moment.

I did some digging on the internet. Apparently biodiesel is better for DPF as it requires a lower temperature and duration for regen leading to longer DPF life. As Estate man points out the engine needs some fettling to run on this fuel anyway. You lose about 10 percent fuel efficiency if you go pure biodiesel.

Shame I cant run my car on Jet A1. I have access to gallons of the stuff which just goes to waste......

I would imagine either car, petrol or diesel is a good buy. Just comes down to personal preference and miles driven

People are putting in rev figures for 70 mph, so here is mine.....2000

[Matt Bodycombe]

I would go for the 1.2 TSI myself: modern Diesel Engnes with the common rail and DPF worry me in regard to long term reliability despite loving y current old school PD!

[Matt Bodycombe]

I would go for the 1.2 TSI myself: modern Diesel Engnes with the common rail and DPF worry me in regard to long term reliability despite loving y current old school PD!

[The Plumber]

Shame I cant run my car on Jet A1. I have access to gallons of the stuff which just goes to waste......

Engine mod maybe; drop the the VW PD and replaces it with a Bristol Olympus gas turbine

TP

[raisbeck]

Engine mod maybe; drop the the VW PD and replaces it with a Bristol Olympus gas turbine

TP

Well I got a PD with regen....does that count as an afterburner

[Guest]

Yes it does!!!

[Matty Le Swan]

Deal done!

The dealer got close enough to the DTD price for me to be happy, so the deposit is paid and I'll pop into the dealer on Monday lunchtime to sign the order off.

I'll let you know the estimated delivery as soon as I am told. I'm hoping it won't be quite as long a wait as it seems to be with the 1.2 TSI.

It's going to be a long Autumn.

Thanks for your help.

Best wishes

Matt

[yorkybar]

You have made the right move. Congratulations. You will also have more grins-per-mile and general satisfaction than TSI owners. Not by a huge margin. But enough to give you a warm glow every time you shift into second gear at 1800rpm. Heck, or at 3,500rpm!

I would be interested to know the in-gear acceleration times of the 1.6 TDI 105 versus the VRS.

my 105 tsi dsg is in 7th gear by 1800 rpm