So can DSG7 only handle 250 NM

[vRSy]

Theres alot of 'opinions going about the Dry DSG7 gear box.

I hear alot of "250 Nm is the maximum rated output it can handle" being thrown around.

the question was wear did this info come from, was it just forum hear say or was it mis-interpretation of the technical spiel.

I have found this VW spiel on DSG and it talks about torque outputs on the gearboxes.

This is the extract im particularly talking about:

Both DSG gearboxes are application-specific. The 6-speed is paired with high torque engines (up to 350 Nm) while the 7-speed variant is more effective in combination with smaller engines and torque outputs of up to 250 Nm.

Now i think think this is what people have misinterpreted. The outputs they stated just happen to be the maximum outputs of the flagship engines for VAG.

It says the DSG6 is paired with engines UPTO 350 NM(250lbft) which just so happens to be the stock torque figure on the Audi S3 TFSI.

It says the DSG7 is paired to engines UPTO 250 NM(184lbft) which just so happens to be the stock torque output of the 1.4TSI(180) in the vRS/cupra/polo GTI. At no point have they said that the maximum torque limit is 250 NM.

All they have said is for the cars below 250NM they chose to use the DSG&, for the cars above that and upto 350 NM they chose to use the DSG6.

When the DSG6 came out on the Mk5 platform, the forums were rife with rumours of how DSG gearboxes were weak, with internals made of chocolate that were likely to melt if you were to merely fart near them.

The DSG6 wet box is used on vehicles upto 350Nm which =258lbft. Yet at stage 1 the k04 TFSI will hit 300lbft easily, stage 2 330lbft, stage 2+ upto 360lbft. Guys with hybrid turbos, nitrous or big turbos are running 400lbft. thats over 540NM. Not read of any guys destroying gearboxes through excessive torque yet. (only clutches wearing out, but this occurs in manual as well)

There is a reason the DSG6 can handle so much torque and the engines are so tunable and thats because VAG over engineer all their cars with a large factor of safety/reliability.

There is absolutely no way VAG would produce a gearbox that would run at its maximum output from the offset(as it would on the TSI(180) if 250NM was the limt. That would mean they would have designed it with zero factor of safety/reliability.

But hey i could have interpreted it.

IMO the clutch will be the limiting factor until you start being stupid with your modifications.

Edited 17 February, 2011 by janner_Sy

[vRSy]

Found this from APR, which in all fairness probably have the best R&D in the business

Being headquarted in the USA we don't get the 1.4 TSI in any form for any VAG chassis. That being said, we have drooled over this little marvel of a lump for quite some time. After many months of research and preliminary testing, we were finally set to develop products for the 1.4 TSI.

We have researched the engine and transmission design from afar through all available technical documentation, have completely disseminated all 2500 maps in the ecu's, compared each component of the engine and transmission to other versions of the TSI and DSG and so we headed abroad to finally get our hands on a 1.4 TSI and work our magic.

Firstly, we wanted to find the absolute limits of the turbo and super charger forced induction system. Most of you will be pleased to know that we were able to see 30 psi from the oem engine with no hardware changes. We measured exhaust gas temperatures, intercooler efficiency, air intake temperatures, air fuel ratios, timing etc. and were able to determine that the engine could and would safely consume such boost pressures from a fueling and calibration perspective. Our concerns were the listed specifications by mahle and other oem teir 1 suppliers regarding the strength and safe operating parameters of the engine internals themselves. That being said, we feel we were able to determine the absolute ragged edge the engine can handle. That was our first step.

From there, we began increasing the margin of safety back to power levels that were more easily maintained at our goal of a 250,000 mile engine life. Boost pressure was the first parameter to be lowered and we began looking more closely at the DSG gear box.

Ratings from VAG are kinda fuzzy regarding the DSG and it seems that they can rate nearly identical DSG gear boxes on a wide scale. So, we determined the only way to find out is through real world testing. We work with other oem teir 1 suppliers in this industry and were given access to some of their internal testing and we collected our own accelerated life analysis as well. The results were certainly not shocking to us and were right in line with what we expected. Nearly all versions and variants of the DSG contain very similar or even the same internal components and the weakest link is still the clutch packs. Our determination is that just like the 2.0T FSI, the 1.4 TSI DSG is good to roughly 380 lb ft until the clutch packs started to wear prematurely. This means that you have plently of room in your dsg for modifications and that if you do experience a failure, its going to be the clutch packs which can be upgraded just like a manual transmission but command a much higher purchase price and a much greater level of expertise for the assembly. VAG doesn't even open up the DSG at the dealership level so if you do plan on going for more than 380 lb ft you should make sure you have some cash saved up.

30 days later of dyno and road testing, we began our beta testing process which yielded excellent results as you see in the posted dyno graph.

Our 1.4 TSi ECU Upgrade has been released for approximately 5 weeks now and the reviews are amazing. The latest kudo is directly from VW themselves where a Greecian VW employee had a chance to experience our 1.4 TSi calibration and was completely over the moon.

Also, at APR we have access to a full motorsport team - APR motorsport

- which aids in our development and research with these engines.

Thought stressful motorsport testing, we were able to find the limits.

We broke many things along the way and thankfully lets us know how far to push your engine. FWIW our race team just took first place at Watkins Glen!

Like the previous six-speed DSG gearbox, the new version has been sealed for life. Clutch plate wear is not an issue says Volkswagen, confident that well over a million development miles have ironed out any issues.

As well in-house testing, VW has stripped down gearboxes from real-world customer cars that have recorded as many as 200,000 miles and found wear well within the engineers' tolerances.

However, to ensure life-long reliability, the gearbox's ECU has been calibrated to forbid any potentially damaging gear changes occurring - and even if you do happen to overheat the clutch, the 'box has been pre-programmed with a failsafe to prevent permanent damage.

This takes the form of a warning light, followed by a very small amount of clutch burning, the smell of which floods the cabin. Carry on with the abuse and the ECU will artificially mimic clutch slip, hinting at a mechanical catastrophe. If this isn't enough, as a last resort, the next time the car comes to a standstill, the drive is completely disengaged until temperatures return to normal.

To improve durability even further, the DSG-7 will not be fitted with any engines producing more than 180lb-ft of torque to prevent the clutch exceeding its operating temperature.

Hi Guys

I have been asked to post some info in this section.

The P-Torque software for the 1.4 TSI offers approx 210 - 215hp and 205 - 210lbs/ft torque.

We are currently chatting to Forge regarding the FMIC and Intake system for the Fabia, and check fitment against that of the Ibiza's

There has been alot of concern regarding DSG transmission in almost all VAG variants, but in actual fact they are very strong, and we have tested them both on the track, road and dyno, and to date not 1 customer has suffered a DSG issue, despite some running high levels of torque (360lbs/ft)

Within the next week we will be releasing our DSG software upgrade for the Fabia/Ibiza too

Edited 17 February, 2011 by janner_Sy

[logiclee]

So what's fitted to the 320NM 2.0TDCi Tiguan?

It's a 7 speed DSG but is this box a special for 4wd versions.

Cheers

Lee

[vRSy]

So what's fitted to the 320NM 2.0TDCi Tiguan?

It's a 7 speed DSG but is this box a special for 4wd versions.

Cheers

Lee

is it a Wet or dry DSG7. the above is reference the dry DSG7 box

[logiclee]

is it a Wet or dry DSG7. the above is reference the dry DSG7 box

Do they do a wet clutch 7?

I though only the 6 speeders were wet clutch.

Edit:- Audi list a 7 speed S-Tronic with wet clutches for longitundinal engine layouts that handles 440lbft. Wonder if VW are using it in the Tiguan. I did think that had a transverse engine layout though.

Cheers

Lee

Edited 18 February, 2011 by logiclee

[eccleshill]

There is absolutely no way VAG would produce a gearbox that would run at its maximum output from the offset(as it would on the TSI(180) if 250NM was the limt. That would mean they would have designed it with zero factor of safety/reliability.

But hey i could have interpreted it.

IMO the clutch will be the limiting factor until you start being stupid with your modifications.

No it doesn't mean that they have zero margin for safety and reliability. It means that the 250Nm is the limit taking into account the safety/reliability margin.

The 250 figure doesn't mean 250Nm and all in the garden is rosy, 251Nm and kiss goodbye to your gearbox. It means that at the 250Nm point on the graph the MTBF (mean time before failure) figure reaches the level that VAG consider to be acceptable from the customer acceptance point of view for longevity and VAG acceptance point of view for level of warranty claims.

It is not about absolute black and white figures but statistics and levels of acceptable risk.

[vRSy]

No it doesn't mean that they have zero margin for safety and reliability. It means that the 250Nm is the limit taking into account the safety/reliability margin.

The 250 figure doesn't mean 250Nm and all in the garden is rosy, 251Nm and kiss goodbye to your gearbox. It means that at the 250Nm point on the graph the MTBF (mean time before failure) figure reaches the level that VAG consider to be acceptable from the customer acceptance point of view for longevity and VAG acceptance point of view for level of warranty claims.

It is not about absolute black and white figures but statistics and levels of acceptable risk.

Agree on statistics and the MTBF.

But what im trying to point is so many people state on here that the gearbox can only handle 250 NM. they said the same of the DSG6 yet that safely runs 40% more torque than the original 350 NM that people thought was capable. The only failures have been clutches which is understandable.

I'll be trying to keep mine below 300 Nm just for longevity