I do quote you: "so at least we agree on one thing, it doesn't apply retrospective so on vehicles manufactured previous to 2012 it doesnt count. "

.....as far as I know and understand, it's the MOT regulations that are changing (in whichever direction) as of 1/1/2012. So, if you're only talking about The Law, where does 2012 make an appearance?

And so far, by your reasoning, the requirement for being approved and legal is only applicable to new vehicles and once they're on the road, you're free to fit whatever bulb (and therefore any other accessory) you wish to.

Without looking back through the thread as I'm in my phone, I think you and others started of my saying, from jan 12 it will be illegal to have HIDs which has then changed to it is already illegal.

My reasoning is that if they change the regulations ie- when seatbelt became compulsory in vehicles it only applied to vehicles manufactured after that date, so I don't think once bought you can do anything to them I think that if the regulations change in 2012 then and vehicle registered before that date it does apply to is reversing and rear fog lights, cars manufactured before they came in still don't have to have them fitted although many users do tend to have them fitted for safety reasons.

Yeah, I can understand your confusion: 1/1/2012 was mentioned as when the MOT regulations change, not The Law. When you read back, you'll see I've not managed to confuse the MOT and The Law. Would be rather pointless about discussing a law that will change in 4 weeks, don't you think? (All you'd have do is wait 4 weeks). You were the one who said about The Law changing and not being retrospective as of 1/1/2012. I think everyone else has made the clear distinction between The Law and the MOT.

I've stated all along that retro-fit HIDs are already illegal, unless total compliance is ahered to. Initially because the Fact Sheet aout The Law gave requirements, as of 2006 (thus rendering all arguments about pre-2006 vehicles redundant) what is required to comply with The Law. The discussion has since yielded the definition of 'approval' marks which has enforced the illegality of retrofit HIDs into Hx reflectors.

Whichever way you want to look at the issue, unless you comply with what is stated in law, retro-fit HIDs into Hx reflectors is illegal, regardless of what goes on at the MOT (now or in January), as there are presently no approved HIDs for Hx reflectors. What happens with The Law in the future is anybodys guess.

And yes, regulations and laws can be made retrospective. We had to fit hazard lights and a 'proper' hand-brake to the trike to comply. Seat-belts couldn't be made compulsary before a certain date as it would require structural modifications, and almost certainly type-approval given those modifications. (although my 1973 Morris Marina did have factory-fitted rear anchor-points) If you have a horse and cart, I suspect the spinning blades that were available and popular in 300BC would not be legal for use on the road today, as would cow-horns on the bonnet.

Well it hasn't now has it! All it has proved is that the headlamp unit needs a quality mark, that's all!

Ok because your having problems with grasping this, I'll paste the 2006 DFT fact sheet here rather than the earlier link.

I'll also spell it out for you as it appears you're having problems with this. The law bit - The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 are the current enforceable law for vehicle lighting in the UK. HID & LED for that matter are not mentioned as a permitted lighting and are therefore not legally allowed. New vehicles are legal with HID as they are permitted under European type approval and being part of the EU, The UK parliament has agreed to abide by these laws.

So as you can see all lighting not mentioned in The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 is illegal unless it's for a new car and then EU type approvals will have priority.

Therefore retro fitting HID's to any age of vehicle is not legally permitted in UK. However, as explained in the fact sheet the DfT are willing to accept retro fitting of HID headlamps if they comply with the following...

1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.

2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).

3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.

The fact sheet gives a laymans terms description of this.

So as you can see it's perfectly clear. There's no ambiguity.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fact sheet: Aftermarket HID headlamps

December 2006

In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.

The following is the legal rationale:

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.

Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.

However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).

For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.

Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:

1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.

2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).

3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.

In practice this means:

1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.

2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.

3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.

Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.

In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above.

If you require any further information regarding the regulations covered by this fact sheet, please contact the DfT at the address below:

Transport Technology and Standards 6

Department for Transport

Zone 2/04

Great Minster House

76 Marsham Street

London

SW1P 4DR

Telephone: 020 7944 2078

Fax: 020 7944 2196

Email: [email protected]

Ok because your having problems with grasping this, I'll paste the 2006 DFT fact sheet here rather than the earlier link.

Ah, Steve, our friend mdon believes that the fact sheet is a "best practice guide" not a statement of fact about the law. You, I and others have pointed out, with government sources, The Law with regards to retro-fit HIDs. The Law has all the angles covered (i.e. must be approved and marked etc) and yet still there is a belief that The Law is wrong, mis-guided, open to interpretation or mis-application.

It's also been demonstrated the MOT and The Law are two different things, with different requirements, effective dates and interpretations. The MOT appears to be very much in the hands of the MOT inspector and his discretion, where-as The Law is very black and white.

Unless The Law is changed to allow non-approved components in the headlight units (unlikely) or someone manufactures an approved Hx HID unit (which would still only be 1/3 of the requirement at this time), then I feel there is little more to be gained by repeatedly pointing people to the clear definition of The Law and it's requirements, as there'll always be those who will say "yes but if I interpret this in my own special way then it doesn't apply."

So, as all the legal angles are demonstrably covered, I watch the sun set on this discussion. However, it should be noted that I would love to have HIDs on my car, but only if the fitment of such completely falls within the scope and requirements of The Law.

Let's be honest, mdon is never going to agree with us, whatever legal document we put in front of him.

I'm a member of the CSMA, and through there have contacts with other members who work at VOSA, and have checked the legislation with them. Steve's "Fact Sheet" is the same one that I was given and it points to all the exact Legislation in this situation.

I think it also shows, amongst many of our number on here (given that this isn't the first discussion on Briskoda on the subject and I'd be surprised if it was the last) the mentality of "if it passes the MOT it *must* be legal". However, a functioning speedometer is not tested under the MOT currently, and I also (and I am happy to be proved wrong - at any time) am under the impression that number plates are not part of the MOT as the certificate shows you could give the VIN number if the registration mark was unavailable. (i.e. no plates). Plates and functioning speedometer are a legal requirements though.

Quite.

It also goes to show how much actual REAL expertese there is here.

Have you seen this one?

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/220747-daft-question/page__pid__2602212#entry2602212