Camshaft changed - burning oil smell

[mark.r.cullen]

Hi all,

Just got back from a VW specialist garage after having the camshaft changed. Unfortunately they are now closed, so I will have to phone them and ask them this in the morning. I was hoping some on here could give some input though.

What's considered normal after having it changed?

- There's a fairly strong smell of burning oil under the bonnet. My father said he did not see any smoke on the journey home, but then it was dark so if there was any you wouldn't have been able to tell what colour it was anyway.

- There's a sort of whirring knocking noise when revving at about 2000RPM. I can hear it, but he can't. Is this probably normal until the camshaft has run in a bit?

- There was a quite pronounced clatter when turning the engine off which I have never noticed before.

- I think I can hear a hint of lifter ticking noise at a very specific RPM (always low, I can't hear shiz when revving past about 2000RPM as general diesel engine + turbo noise takes over)

Thanking you all for any advice.

I've got the old stuff too, so will post pictures of it's condition soon

[cheezemonkhai]

I'd think it's back to the fitting garage.

[mark.r.cullen]

I'd think it's back to the fitting garage.

Quite possibly :( I don't really know what's "normal" for a few hundred miles. I know it has to wear in, and that I should change the oil again shortly after having it done (which, come to think of it, they also did not mention...)

edit - ahhh. I should mention I have done the ccv to atmosphere mod. I wonder if the smell might just because of that + burning cam assembly goop or something??

Edited 19 December, 2011 by mark.r.cullen

[Guest BigJase88]

Maybe a bit of oil on the exhaust manifold or something

Tricky one do you give it time to run in and cross your fingers, maybe just go back to garage and ask their opinion....

[Jasons]

i would certainly take it back asap,because if you keep driving it and do more damage,they could turn around and say well if you had brought it back sooner we could have done something about it,but as you didnt it is beyond repair etc,but ditto on the oil on the manifold theory.hope you get it sorted.

[mark.r.cullen]

Maybe a bit of oil on the exhaust manifold or something

Tricky one do you give it time to run in and cross your fingers, maybe just go back to garage and ask their opinion....

Yeah, that was the fathers thought, but it's much too dark to see at 4pm. Damn winter.

I started it up after an hour and a half of cooling down (just before that edit in the last post). You could smell it pretty much straight away, but I couldn't tell you if it was coming from the CCV pipe or not.

I will have a lookie around the engine bay tomorrow, and perhaps undo the CCV at the cover and see if it is creating a stink from there.

I will also be phoning them up tomorrow to ask them, as I am not feeling too confident about it at the moment, but I bet they'll probably say the noise is normal and will disappear with time though :( I'm only "book smart" - I hadn't read anything about noise after a camshaft change in my research. It did drive okay though, but then it drove okay with the old cam!

Speaking of which, here's some pictures. Excuse the massive amount of lint evident in the photos (couldn't actually see any of it in real life!)...

[Guest BigJase88]

So what caused you to change the cam in the first place??

[mark.r.cullen]

So what caused you to change the cam in the first place??

It was starting to wear, as evidenced in above photos

[mannyo]

Looks like its been running dry due to oil starvation, and sounds like the new one is as well hence the burning smell. I would hazard a guess and say the replacement camshaft is now also ruined and in need of replacement. Unless you car has intergalactic mileage I am surprised the camshaft needed changing in the first place. There is at least one 1.9TDi Fabia on here with in excess of 200K miles and its still original.

[Guest BigJase88]

It was starting to wear, as evidenced in above photos

I dont know anything about engine internals but what symptoms required you to change the cam?

The pd engines in the 150 varient suffer from cam

Issues, doesnt seem common on the others

[MoggyTech]

What sort of mileage has the old camshaft done? Despite some copper lifting, the cam profiles still have the edge chamfer, and the bucket tappets look pretty normal for an engine that has covered about 80K ?

As for your burning oil smell and new noises, play it safe and call the garage to arrange an inspection. Oil smell us usually spilled oil on the manifold, but should burn off in a few minutes. You may find the tappets are silent after sitting for 24 hours or over night.

[mark.r.cullen]

Looks like its been running dry due to oil starvation, and sounds like the new one is as well hence the burning smell. I would hazard a guess and say the replacement camshaft is now also ruined and in need of replacement. Unless you car has intergalactic mileage I am surprised the camshaft needed changing in the first place. There is at least one 1.9TDi Fabia on here with in excess of 200K miles and its still original.

128k miles. All I have read is that it's common across all the SOHC PD engines (PD130 included). I may get them to pull the cover again tomorrow if I can, and see what the new one is like after ~50 miles. I'm not overly convinced it's right at this point.

I dont know anything about engine internals but what symptoms required you to change the cam?

The pd engines in the 150 varient suffer from cam

Issues, doesnt seem common on the others

My only real indicator was that it started making the infamous 'bupping' noise. It disappeared when warm, and only reappeared if I left the car for 24 hours without starting.

http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/405/zem.mp4/

From about 6 seconds in you can hear it. Sort of a booming hollow knock at 1/2 engine revs. Apparently this usually appears when one of the lifters collapses completely / 'holes' itself, but none of mine were in that state.

[mark.r.cullen]

What sort of mileage has the old camshaft done? Despite some copper lifting, the cam profiles still have the edge chamfer, and the bucket tappets look pretty normal for an engine that has covered about 80K ?

As for your burning oil smell and new noises, play it safe and call the garage to arrange an inspection. Oil smell us usually spilled oil on the manifold, but should burn off in a few minutes. You may find the tappets are silent after sitting for 24 hours or over night.

Thanks Moggy. I was hoping you would come along and utter your usual wise words.

Indeed, it is in far better shape than some pictures I have seen. It had 128k miles on it.

I had driven it about 25 miles keeping it above 2500RPM where possible, so I would have thought oil should have burnt off :( I also started it after letting it rest for an hour and a half and you could smell it again nearly instantly. Might it be something to do with the CCV mod and cam assembly goop do you think?

I hope they magically quiet themselves down. I was under the impressions it would only take a few minutes (if that) for them to turn quiet...

[MoggyTech]

I suspect they have probably failed to seal the rocker cover properly. No oil lines need to come off to do the job, so it's all I can think of at the moment. I trust all the bits where OEM and not pattern parts? The new bucket tappets should be case hardened black steel.

The 1.9 TDI PD top end is my least favorite part of an otherwise excellent engine. The valve cams are too narrow, to accommodate the injector rocker cams, and the oil feed to the shells could have been designed better.

That said, your old camshaft aint that bad for 128K

[mark.r.cullen]

I suspect they have probably failed to seal the rocker cover properly. No oil lines need to come off to do the job, so it's all I can think of at the moment. I trust all the bits where OEM and not pattern parts? The new bucket tappets should be case hardened black steel.

The 1.9 TDI PD top end is my least favorite part of an otherwise excellent engine. The valve cams are too narrow, to accommodate the injector rocker cams, and the oil feed to the shells could have been designed better.

That said, your old camshaft aint that bad for 128K

They had it off once before. Probably the first time it has been off ever. I recall reading that some kind of sealant should be used at two places near the timing belt end? I wish I could get the damn thing off myself!

The camshaft, lifters and bearings were actually not OE parts in this instance. It is a genuine Kolbenschmidt steel camshaft, black hardened lifters (not sure on brand unfortunately) and Glyco bearings - bought from Redmans Engine Centre (from recommendation of others). I think the quality of these is okay - I know there's a lot of fakes etc.

I wonder how long I could have gone with it as it was then The scoring on some of the lifters and lobes concerned me a bit, but obviously that's fairly normal? I can not feel it with my finger tip, but can with a finger nail.

And here was me hoping everything would be peaches again after the change and I would get another 100k out of it

Edited 19 December, 2011 by mark.r.cullen

[MoggyTech]

The bits you have fitted are quality parts, aka not from Wongs House of Wares on e-bay

Now the bad news, there's nout wrong with that old camshaft and lifters that I can see, not given the miles it has done anyway. When they are gone, the chamfer at the edge of each valve cam lobe is worn away, and the lifters have holes in the top face. Bearings show wear right across, and edges are often destroyed due to camshaft 'cocking' (oh er misses).

Still jobs done, and hopefully all will be smell free and quiet in no time.

[mark.r.cullen]

The bits you have fitted are quality parts, aka not from Wongs House of Wares on e-bay

Now the bad news, there's nout wrong with that old camshaft and lifters that I can see, not given the miles it has done anyway. When they are gone, the chamfer at the edge of each valve cam lobe is worn away, and the lifters have holes in the top face. Bearings show wear right across, and edges are often destroyed due to camshaft 'cocking' (oh er misses).

Still jobs done, and hopefully all will be smell free and quiet in no time.

Yeah, chamfer is still there... which surprised me somewhat! Do the lifters with the scoring in the middle seem fine in your opinion? You can sort of visibly see they're indented a tiny tiny bit in the middle (not so much in the picture) if you look at them at the right angle / right light. Maybe they get *alot* worse than that though?!

I'm missing one of the bearings, but maybe 5 of them were looking a bit worn... not to copper though as you can see.

I'm still kinda glad I got it done, even though it maybe didn't need doing just yet. I will let you know what gets discovered on the morrow

[MoggyTech]

Yeah, chamfer is still there... which surprised me somewhat! Do the lifters with the scoring in the middle seem fine in your opinion? You can sort of visibly see they're indented a tiny tiny bit in the middle (not so much in the picture) if you look at them at the right angle / right light. Maybe they get *alot* worse than that though?!

I'm missing one of the bearings, but maybe 5 of them were looking a bit worn... not to copper though as you can see.

I'm still kinda glad I got it done, even though it maybe didn't need doing just yet. I will let you know what gets discovered on the morrow

If VW were looking at those lifters, they would say they are in first class nick. They even allow for small cracks in them, as long as they are not leaking oil. Mind you, the pictures I've seen from VW of so called OK lifters, were a joke. What they could get away with to save money in warranty claims springs to mind.

Given how narrow the valve cams are on those camshafts, I'm surprised your lifters look that good after 128K miles. IIRC it was the PD150 engines that had a fair few cam and lifter failures early on.

Now did anyone number the old lifters as they were removed? I reckon that cam is good for a fair few miles yet

[mark.r.cullen]

If VW were looking at those lifters, they would say they are in first class nick. They even allow for small cracks in them, as long as they are not leaking oil. Mind you, the pictures I've seen from VW of so called OK lifters, were a joke. What they could get away with to save money in warranty claims springs to mind.

Given how narrow the valve cams are on those camshafts, I'm surprised your lifters look that good after 128K miles. IIRC it was the PD150 engines that had a fair few cam and lifter failures early on.

Now did anyone number the old lifters as they were removed? I reckon that cam is good for a fair few miles yet

shocking. I didn't know that. If I was looking at it, uninformed as I am, I would have said they look like they should be changed heh. Really in that good nick huh?

Fiendish! But sadly, they were not numbered. They were just thrown in the box that I provided the new parts in!

If the camshaft were 'reground' or even just polished up (professionally obviously), could new lifters then be used? Suspect that wouldn't really be much more cost efficient than buying something new though

[MoggyTech]

Cam journals could be machined up and smaller shell bearings fitted. Camshaft lobes are a bit tricky on a diesel, as the valve timing is crucial. Mind you I reckon that camshaft would clean up with Moly paste and a rag. Not really worth the time and effort though, as new cams are not that expensive as you most likely know.

Where you getting any tappet noise before you changed it? or was it simply replaced as it was looking slightly worn?

[mark.r.cullen]

Cam journals could be machined up and smaller shell bearings fitted. Camshaft lobes are a bit tricky on a diesel, as the valve timing is crucial. Mind you I reckon that camshaft would clean up with Moly paste and a rag. Not really worth the time and effort though, as new cams are not that expensive as you most likely know.

Where you getting any tappet noise before you changed it? or was it simply replaced as it was looking slightly worn?

There was a bit of tappet noise (I think... best I could tell), and the 'bupping'.

I have had a quick look over this morning.

There's a lot of damp looking oil around the top front of the engine, up at the cover gasket. Probably nothing to worry about? I'll clean it up and see if it returns. I didn't long a go clean my engine bay, and never noticed this patch before...

The battery lid wasn't on right. That possibly caused some noise yesterday.

Other noise appears to have gone.

The smell was not evident.

I couldn't see any oil patches under the car.

Oil level on the dip stick was right up to the top of the indented part, which is where it has always sat.

But.... there's now a rather loud tapping! Or I am mistaking it for diesel clatter. It sounds kind of sharp but hollow. I tried to get a video of it, but my phone is not the best and you couldn't really hear it over the distortion :(

Edited 20 December, 2011 by mark.r.cullen

[mark.r.cullen]

Father just got back and had a listen. Used a screwdriver to the ear (neat trick) and it sounded okay in there. He can hear a tapping noise, but thinks it may just be normal diesel knock.

It just sounds very ... tappy... to me.

It kinda sounds like the tapping knocking noise you can hear in these videos:

Ignoring any other funky noises and just listening to the quite naily knocking. Sound normal to everyone else? I think I am actually worring over nothing. Seems to just be normal PD engine noise

Edited 20 December, 2011 by mark.r.cullen

[MoggyTech]

If it sounds like those videos it's fine. PD130 always did sound like a tractor especially when cold. Let it warm up with a good drive, park up and open the bonnet and turn the aircon on, bet it sounds sweet as a nut mate.

Oil in front of rocker cover I would expect this after a top end rebuild. Quite a bit drips out when the rocker cover is removed.

Pretty sure the jobs a goodun, time to enjoy the car again. :yes:

For extra peace of mind, if you have VAGCOM/VCDS, check the syncro angle with the car fully warmed up. Spec is +/- 2 degrees, but usually sits at about -.5 a good reading just confirms the timing belt and sprockets are all lined up correctly. Mind you, hard to get it wrong with the correct locking tools.

[mark.r.cullen]

If it sounds like those videos it's fine. PD130 always did sound like a tractor especially when cold. Let it warm up with a good drive, park up and open the bonnet and turn the aircon on, bet it sounds sweet as a nut mate.

Oil in front of rocker cover I would expect this after a top end rebuild. Quite a bit drips out when the rocker cover is removed.

Pretty sure the jobs a goodun, time to enjoy the car again. :yes:

For extra peace of mind, if you have VAGCOM/VCDS, check the syncro angle with the car fully warmed up. Spec is +/- 2 degrees, but usually sits at about -.5 a good reading just confirms the timing belt and sprockets are all lined up correctly. Mind you, hard to get it wrong with the correct locking tools.

Thanks Moggy. I think it is actually okay, as you say - it's just me panicing over nothing as ever

I just went out and held revs at 2500RPM for 10 minutes or so (read that's good for breaking a new cam in), since I didn't get a chance to do that last night. That actually seemed to quiet it down a hell of a lot, so I went to dispose of 'some' empty bottles (it's Christmas!). I've just got back and parked up on the drive, and it's sounding just fine now as far as I can tell! It's strange how you tune in to new noises.

I couldn't smell any burning oil smells. I've attempted to clean up the damp oily patches and will keep an eye on them, but as you say... that's most likely just where it's dripped out a bit after the cover has been removed.

I have VCDS, so on my next run I will check the syncro angle, though I am sure that's alright. I previously posted in a thread of yours that it was at 0 with some spikes to -0.5 from what I remember, but that was before this work.

No more "bupping" noise that I can hear either - which was the main symptom that I had before.

Edited 20 December, 2011 by mark.r.cullen

[MoggyTech]

Excellent news, all good then