diesil vrs

[BossFox]

Good grief, let's not get into a manual-vs-DSG debate again on the mkII VRS!

It depends what you want from a car. Personal choice.

I have a powerful petrol DSG style car and it's fabulous. Having a manual would only make the car slower.

But I also did a test drive in a mkII VRS and for fun at lower speeds and the raw feeling of actually driving I preferred a manual. So I went and bought the best mkI VRS I could find.

For throwing a car around within the speed limit I'd rather have a manual in a car not designed from day one to be a racer.

That's my personal choice.

I want to feel the driving experience in a Fabia, and just press the loud pedal and hold on in a petrol monster.

I get satisfaction from a well made gear change and balancing the car. I don't get that in my DSG and I like it, even if it makes the car slower.

Of course, most people will just argue for what they actually bought...

Which is no surprise as they personally chose it didn't they?

[Brian69]

For me it was the PD engine that made the MKI. I don't think a CR will have anywhere near the same character.

On the mileage I do I can't justify a diesel - only bought a diesel as I'd always liked the MKI Fabia vRS and fancied something a bit different after my Lupo GTi (but still VAG).

[BossFox]

For me it was the PD engine that made the MKI. I don't think a CR will have anywhere near the same character.

It's doesn't, you are right.

Good engine, better in a many ways. But too refined to have the same character.

[GeneralPurpose]

IMHO the small diesel 'hayday' is done

Hi Pearce, I certainly respect your opinion. But gotta say I've spent the last few weeks testing loads of new diesel cars (and the new petrol Golf 1.4TSI 122ps - lovely it was!), and there are some surprising good small diesel cars in the pipeline for 2012. This includes the Skoda range with euro 6 compliant diesel engines (they've got the DPF, and a CAT that also scrubbs out nearly all the NOX). I've been impressed with the Ford 1.6 diesel world Focus car too, and I've driven the Hyundia i30 diesels and the Kia's, Vauxhalls, Fiats, Citroens, Peugeots etc etc too. About the only car I haven't driven is the brand new Honda Civic 2.2 already euro6 compliant with nox scrubber etc, and there is a brand new 1600cc diesel engine coming in 2012 for the Civic and other models. But most of the cars I have driven are already or will be Euro6 compliant at some point in 2012 ready for the new rules. Cost doesn't seem to be affected that much from what I'm reading and from what the dealers are telling me, although they do cost a bit more. I haven't decided what to buy yet and I'm waiting to test the Civic which seems amazing on paper at least. We'll see eh!

Will there be a diesel Vrs? yes but not yet on this platform as Babs says.

Edited 31 December, 2011 by Estate Man

[GeneralPurpose]

Diesel - Economy, nippy, expensive (to buy and run) - BP Ultimate diesel - £1.49 litre

Petrol - Quick, relatively inexpensive (to buy and run) - Texaco High Octane - £1.34 litre

Huge respect, but that is a funny comparison to make. Things have moved on considerably since the 1.9PD. The Vrs is and will always be one of the most expensive petrol cars to run. That's just one reason why it's engine is being dropped. Maintenance costs particularly long term are massive and they are a liability if out of warranty. My nephew has had two in the workshop just this week with major engine problems that would cost a fortune if the cars were not under warranty (a supercharger problem on one of them at just 12k miles, and I'm told a seized engine on the other at 15k!). On another note, I've just paid £1.38 per litre for my Esso diesel, but irrespective of that even at £1.49 a litre you get so much more for your money (most people get 25-40% more miles per gallon from diesel over an equivalent petrol version) which far out weighs the tiny extra cost. Along with either no road tax, or just £20 or £30 pa. Better residuals etc etc... I've never ever met anyone who has been worse off for buying diesel over the equivalent petrol version with either high or low miles being covered per annum. Rather, the reverse is true. You cannot lose by buying diesel. Even purchase price of a new diesel car can be very close to that of a petrol version these days depending when and where you buy. I know because I'm currently testing every diesel I can lay my hands on with a view to buying. I've been quoted some amazing deals which even on pure cost alone means diesel wins every time. And I only drive about 6k per year in my diesel Fabia at the moment although that is about to change and go up a few thousand miles pa. I cover another 10k on the motorcycle (horrendously expensive to run compared to my car!!)

I'm not saying there may not be other issues someone might want to consider in buying a particular diesel car, and I'm not suggesting anyone buys a diesel if they are purely after an outright performance/fun kiddies car/hot hatch. Petrol can be very fun and is right for some people. It depends on what you want, what ticks the boxes for you. Some people just hate diesels, and that's fair enough. But look at it objectively with all the proper facts and ignore the propaganda that people use against diesels and you'll see what I and others mean.

[pearce_jj]

...but irrespective of that even at £1.49 a litre you get so much more...Better residuals etc etc...

My current car is a diesel and for that pleasure I paid £1,500 over the basic petrol model. I'll never get the money back on it even with the fuel savings over nearly 50k. Residuals are less in percentage terms of cost for diesels for many supermini vehicles.

I've never ever met anyone who has been worse off for buying diesel over the equivalent petrol version with either high or low miles being covered per annum. Rather, the reverse is true. You cannot lose by buying diesel.

The other diesel car I've owned cost me £2,500 when oil sludge blocked a turbo feed pipe. It had done 20k miles in four years and had FDSH.

[Latte]

There is an annual mileage at which a diesel becomes more economical to run than a petrol.

You have to have some constants for comparisons like broadly the same car in the same spec, run over the same time period. You also need good data for predicted residuals. Pop all this in a spreadsheet and you have an answer.

These work best for the large number of folk who run a new car for 2,3 or 4 years.

I am by no means anti-diesel and have run several and will again. But you have to make an economic case on statistics, not figures plucked from the air, or assumptions.

There are many people who tell us fervently of the high mpg they achieved when they visited Aunt Maud in Bude, but gloss over what this economy has cost them. They confuse economy with economics.

To the OP there will be a VRS TiD in 2013/14.

It will be more expensive than the VRS TSi. It will certainly be noisier and smellier and have the peakiness of torque delivery associated with the limitations of diesel engines. It will be more economical but will only be more economic if you cover high mileage.

[jonny boy]

Huge respect, but that is a funny comparison to make. Things have moved on considerably since the 1.9PD. The Vrs is and will always be one of the most expensive petrol cars to run. That's just one reason why it's engine is being dropped. Maintenance costs particularly long term are massive and they are a liability if out of warranty. My nephew has had two in the workshop just this week with major engine problems that would cost a fortune if the cars were not under warranty (a supercharger problem on one of them at just 12k miles, and I'm told a seized engine on the other at 15k!). On another note, I've just paid £1.38 per litre for my Esso diesel, but irrespective of that even at £1.49 a litre you get so much more for your money (most people get 25-40% more miles per gallon from diesel over an equivalent petrol version) which far out weighs the tiny extra cost. Along with either no road tax, or just £20 or £30 pa. Better residuals etc etc... I've never ever met anyone who has been worse off for buying diesel over the equivalent petrol version with either high or low miles being covered per annum. Rather, the reverse is true. You cannot lose by buying diesel. Even purchase price of a new diesel car can be very close to that of a petrol version these days depending when and where you buy. I know because I'm currently testing every diesel I can lay my hands on with a view to buying. I've been quoted some amazing deals which even on pure cost alone means diesel wins every time. And I only drive about 6k per year in my diesel Fabia at the moment although that is about to change and go up a few thousand miles pa. I cover another 10k on the motorcycle (horrendously expensive to run compared to my car!!)

I'm not saying there may not be other issues someone might want to consider in buying a particular diesel car, and I'm not suggesting anyone buys a diesel if they are purely after an outright performance/fun kiddies car/hot hatch. Petrol can be very fun and is right for some people. It depends on what you want, what ticks the boxes for you. Some people just hate diesels, and that's fair enough. But look at it objectively with all the proper facts and ignore the propaganda that people use against diesels and you'll see what I and others mean.

I've owned many diesels and as my post mentioned, had tuned ones in the attempt to gain 'turbo petrol performance', all in vain.

You're scaremongering somewhat mentioning the fragility of the TSi (which is completely unfounded I feel) as they've sold thousands and just like the PD diesel engine, that had many faults from many owners over the years and not forgetting, the TSi has been out for a few years now. The TSi is an absolutely amazing piece of engineering without question.

The fact of the matter is if you want to save money on fuel (in your mind) buy a diesel. All the very best deals are usually petrol.

If you're not fussed about economy, just buy the petrol turbo. Simple as. That's from experience over many years and many cars from both sides.

You're never going to have anywhere near the performance of the VRS with the diesel equivalent either. The economy of those 'pie in the sky' suggested MPG figures for the diesel will pale into pure insignificance when the diesel is tuned and your foot is down in order to get it going anywhere quickly. Been there, done it.

Nearly every review for the VRS is a decent one and it's usually the forums where disgruntled owners go to complain about (in the big scheme of things) issues with the cars engine and gearbox.

And I mean this with the same huge respect, buying a diesel is for people who want to save money, whereas the guys who have bought the VRS don't really care about all that, just want to enjoy a performance car, which it clearly is.

I'm not minted by a long way, but when I fill the car up with petrol, I do just that, then enjoy it. Most diesel drivers end up obsessed with the MPG computer instead of keeping their eyes on the road and enjoying the whistle of the Supercharger and turbo

[Babs]

I've owned many diesels and as my post mentioned, had tuned ones in the attempt to gain 'turbo petrol performance', all in vain.

You're scaremongering somewhat mentioning the fragility of the TSi (which is completely unfounded I feel) as they've sold thousands and just like the PD diesel engine, that had many faults from many owners over the years and not forgetting, the TSi has been out for a few years now. The TSi is an absolutely amazing piece of engineering without question.

The fact of the matter is if you want to save money on fuel (in your mind) buy a diesel. All the very best deals are usually petrol.

If you're not fussed about economy, just buy the petrol turbo. Simple as. That's from experience over many years and many cars from both sides.

You're never going to have anywhere near the performance of the VRS with the diesel equivalent either. The economy of those 'pie in the sky' suggested MPG figures for the diesel will pale into pure insignificance when the diesel is tuned and your foot is down in order to get it going anywhere quickly. Been there, done it.

Nearly every review for the VRS is a decent one and it's usually the forums where disgruntled owners go to complain about (in the big scheme of things) issues with the cars engine and gearbox.

And I mean this with the same huge respect, buying a diesel is for people who want to save money, whereas the guys who have bought the VRS don't really care about all that, just want to enjoy a performance car, which it clearly is.

I'm not minted by a long way, but when I fill the car up with petrol, I do just that, then enjoy it. Most diesel drivers end up obsessed with the MPG computer instead of keeping their eyes on the road and enjoying the whistle of the Supercharger and turbo

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I think I'm in love

[GeneralPurpose]

My current car is a diesel and for that pleasure I paid £1,500 over the basic petrol model. I'll never get the money back on it even with the fuel savings over nearly 50k. Residuals are less in percentage terms of cost for diesels for many supermini vehicles.

The other diesel car I've owned cost me £2,500 when oil sludge blocked a turbo feed pipe. It had done 20k miles in four years and had FDSH.

I'm currently being offered diesel over petrol, same model and spec for between just £450 & £800 more depending on the manufacturer. That's very unfortunate you had a problem, but any car can suffer. Most don't. I don't see why you are not benefiting from owning a diesel even if you only do £5k pa. All the sums say you will.

[dibujo]

Take a look at the BMW 120D. 0-60 7 seconds - 380nm - 60mpg on combined cycle. What's not to like? Hmm - price I suppose.

[GeneralPurpose]

I've owned many diesels and as my post mentioned, had tuned ones in the attempt to gain 'turbo petrol performance', all in vain.

You're scaremongering somewhat mentioning the fragility of the TSi (which is completely unfounded I feel) as they've sold thousands and just like the PD diesel engine, that had many faults from many owners over the years and not forgetting, the TSi has been out for a few years now. The TSi is an absolutely amazing piece of engineering without question.

The fact of the matter is if you want to save money on fuel (in your mind) buy a diesel. All the very best deals are usually petrol.

If you're not fussed about economy, just buy the petrol turbo. Simple as. That's from experience over many years and many cars from both sides.

You're never going to have anywhere near the performance of the VRS with the diesel equivalent either. The economy of those 'pie in the sky' suggested MPG figures for the diesel will pale into pure insignificance when the diesel is tuned and your foot is down in order to get it going anywhere quickly. Been there, done it.

Nearly every review for the VRS is a decent one and it's usually the forums where disgruntled owners go to complain about (in the big scheme of things) issues with the cars engine and gearbox.

And I mean this with the same huge respect, buying a diesel is for people who want to save money, whereas the guys who have bought the VRS don't really care about all that, just want to enjoy a performance car, which it clearly is.

I'm not minted by a long way, but when I fill the car up with petrol, I do just that, then enjoy it. Most diesel drivers end up obsessed with the MPG computer instead of keeping their eyes on the road and enjoying the whistle of the Supercharger and turbo

Hi Jonny...I think you have the wrong impression about my post. I don't disagree with what you are saying in general terms in your post above, but just your statement analogy of costs for petrol and diesel. As an ex-tech I get my information about the TSI twin charged engine from what I and my nephew see in the workshop and what my ex-colleagues in the trade are telling me. I tend to take complaints on forums with a pinch of salt, but they can be a good source of information overall, this site in particular. Now the TSI twin charged engine has been out since 2007 there are now more of them coming in with problems (not just in Skoda but all cars carrying this engine), all engine mechanical related problems for some reason. DSG box is surprisingly good in spite of what you read. It is an amazing piece of engineering, the whole engine and I've enjoyed driving the Vrs. I'm hoping to give hand on the strip down of one of the Vrs engines in the workshop next week, can't wait.

[jonny boy]

Take a look at the BMW 120D. 0-60 7 seconds - 380nm - 60mpg on combined cycle. What's not to like? Hmm - price I suppose.

If you believe that car does 60mpg whilst trying to do a 7 second 0-60 then buy one.

I had a VRS mk1 that would do that time, but to achieve that I did 25 mpg. So will any other diesel. That's exactly what I am talking about. Diesels are not economic when they achieve decent performance figures. Like petrols, they will drink fuel under the cosh.

There's absolutely no doubt that some diesels are fantastic, but the more owners that believe that they do 60mpg driving 'normally', then the more dissapointed diesel owners out there are going to be very much misled.

If you drive like a 80 year old, constantly concentrate on not pressing the throttle and never exceeding 2k revs, then you can achieve big savings. But hey, this is not a rolling road out there, in our real motoring world, we want to enjoy are driving as we're getting fleeced by the Government year after year, then the manufacturers lie through their teeth with unachievable mpg figures. Just get out there guys and enjoy your cars, we've all worked bloody hard for what we've got, be it diesel or petrol.

[GeneralPurpose]

Although you have made some interesting points in a previous post, you seem to be misrepresenting or misunderstanding what Dibujo is saying, like you are some other points being made. I think you would benefit from driving some of the new diesels on the market, I think you are quite out of touch with the new technology and what it offers to diesel drivers. My PD engine is very old hat now, but still amazing, with 64-66mpg available anytime on medium runs cruising at 70mph in normal driving. 75mpg if you drive gently (which I don't often). You don't find many disappointed diesel owners. But the modern stuff is so much better, better performance, bhp, torque and mpg. When a new Vrs diesel comes out as it will I'm sure, I think many will get quite a surprise if the new diesels I've been driving lately are anything to go by. A good example is the new diesel Hyyndua i40 which I have just driven. It has a simply amazing engine...a four cylinder 1.7litre 134bhp (136ps) engine with 320nm of torque. Fuel economy is huge. It easily has considerably more performance than my humble car but beat my own diesel easily on fuel economy. I only had it for a couple of hours or so but saw 68mpg in a cruise to Chelmsford and I was driving completely normally (at 70mph, but we all have our own idea of what normal driving is of course but I don't hang about too much). By the end of the morning I had covered 90 miles and achieved an overall 63.3mpg and that included looping around Chelmsford a time or two. The extra urban figure claimed is 68.9mpg which I have no doubt is easily achievable. It also falls into the £20 per year road tax bracket.

I'm not saying buy a diesel for outright petrol sports performance, but I've a feeling you will be able to soon if you want to. Exciting time eh!

[Babs]

What? We're gonna get diesels with an 8000 rpm red-line?

[GeneralPurpose]

Now there's an interesting thought, but kinda self defeating! Although, with the limiter disabled, we managed 5,200rpm on a motorcycle twin cylinder diesel test bed engine last year before detonation put a nasty hole in a piston.

[jonny boy]

Although you have made some interesting points in a previous post, you seem to be misrepresenting or misunderstanding what Dibujo is saying, like you are some other points being made. I think you would benefit from driving some of the new diesels on the market, I think you are quite out of touch with the new technology and what it offers to diesel drivers. My PD engine is very old hat now, but still amazing, with 64-66mpg available anytime on medium runs cruising at 70mph in normal driving. 75mpg if you drive gently (which I don't often). You don't find many disappointed diesel owners. But the modern stuff is so much better, better performance, bhp, torque and mpg. When a new Vrs diesel comes out as it will I'm sure, I think many will get quite a surprise if the new diesels I've been driving lately are anything to go by. A good example is the new diesel Hyyndua i40 which I have just driven. It has a simply amazing engine...a four cylinder 1.7litre 134bhp (136ps) engine with 320nm of torque. Fuel economy is huge. It easily has considerably more performance than my humble car but beat my own diesel easily on fuel economy. I only had it for a couple of hours or so but saw 68mpg in a cruise to Chelmsford and I was driving completely normally (at 70mph, but we all have our own idea of what normal driving is of course but I don't hang about too much). By the end of the morning I had covered 90 miles and achieved an overall 63.3mpg and that included looping around Chelmsford a time or two. The extra urban figure claimed is 68.9mpg which I have no doubt is easily achievable. It also falls into the £20 per year road tax bracket.

I'm not saying buy a diesel for outright petrol sports performance, but I've a feeling you will be able to soon if you want to. Exciting time eh!

Yeah, agreed, but there's been many 'proper' tests recently regarding MPG claims. Autoexpress did a very in depth test on Diesel v Petrol. Buying from new, equivalent spec, same makes etc and in the long run if you do interstellar mileage within the typical 3 year period, the diesel makes sense. But in the real world, the petrol makes sense. I think you're forgetting, there are some VERY economical petrols out there with stop/start, and in independant testing are getting close to diesel mpg all the time. Sorry, I'm not going to be convinced as I said before, been there, done it. Diesel drivers have to search very hard to find deals to come close to 'saving money'. And there's the issue. It always seems to be about cost cutting with diesels and not just buying what you want. If the Fabia had a diesel VRS along side the twincharged one, only the brigade of "well it's as quick as the other one, but does 80mpg" would buy it.

It will always sound like a taxi on startup and you'll end up driving Miss Daisy to convince yourself it was the right choice, in the attempt to save the pennies. Most drivers will get rid of their cars after the 3rd year, so go with what you want in the first place.

[skodafab]

All this is very interesting but reading the specs on the petrol vrs 7.3s to 60 now using the A1 as an example the cr143ps the are quoting 8.0s to sixty add in the £20 for road tax and a quoted 69.8mpg on the combined cycle am i right or wrong that makes a lot of sense if you like driving diesil cars as i do and to say a derv is no fun why do octy vrs diesils sell like hot cakes its all about grunt why drop 2 gears to overtake someting when you can just plant the trottle and go in a realworld driving from a to b there would not be owt in it to me its all about personal choice and also cr does not sound like a tractor on start up

[jonny boy]

the A1 as an example the cr143ps the are quoting 8.0s to sixty add in the £20 for road tax and a quoted 69.8mpg on the combined cycle

I can absolutely guarantee you that in order to achieve this in that diesel you will NEVER get near 35mpg

You will be passed by Grannies in wheelchairs & steam tractors on the way to attempting to get 70mpg. Dream on !

Having a smug look of "I've saved £10 this week on fuel" will soon wear off when the above happens

[skodafab]

am sorry to put a downer on your comment jonny boy but with regular spirited driving my octy vrs does 45-50mpg so a car thats a lot lighter why not

[jonny boy]

am sorry to put a downer on your comment jonny boy but with regular spirited driving my octy vrs does 45-50mpg so a car thats a lot lighter why not

Spirited ? 45-50mpg ? What were you chasing, that steam roller !

[BossFox]

Spirited ? 45-50mpg ? What were you chasing, that steam roller !

And my 1.9Tdi Fabia VRS averages just over 50mpg... despite being heavily modified and producing about 260bhp.

If I go sensible that can easily be stretched over 60mpg... on an engine that has the potential to hit 60mph from a standstill in less than 6 seconds.

[jonny boy]

And my 1.9Tdi Fabia VRS averages just over 50mpg... despite being heavily modified and producing about 260bhp.

If I go sensible that can easily be stretched over 60mpg... on an engine that has the potential to hit 60mph from a standstill in less than 6 seconds.

That's because you've spent thousands on it in the effort to turn a diesel into a performance petrol turbo

A stage 1 mapped VRS Mk2 will do them 0-60 times for about £400

Nobody can tell me what the standard Mk1 VRS does my friend. I had one for 3 years and spent a fair bit on that one as well.

If I flogged it, it did 30mpg. Like they ALL will. You say it averages 50mpg ! You're completely missing the point. If you trundle about all day the petrol car 'can' do 40mpg.

In an effort for the diesel to try and be 'performance', it runs completely out of puff and needs all of the extra performance modifications to pretend to be a 'quick car'. The petrol one already is.

You can't get away from the fact that the diesel car is there for a thump of torque and economy. It all ends there. That's when the twincharged car comes into it's own.

Let's move away from bragging about how much MPG guys 'think' they achieve. If the computer never had that facility to view the mpg, the diesel guys would be lost

[skodafab]

obviously jonny you dont like diesils and only know how to make rapid progress by reving the arse of a petrol engine and lets be fair you can only do so much with traffic today without being classed as a k**b. Im not insulting you but am sure you get what me is saying

[Latte]

The seduction of a diesel is when it goes on-boost and you think crikey. Then its over, you have hit the 4500rpm redline, changed up and gone off-boost, but then it happens again. Its seductive and leads you to believe its fast when it isn’t. They’re just torque moments.

As someone pointed out, it works much better with a well-programmed dsg that can keep the rpm in the boost envelope. I test drove an Octy VRS CR 170 DSG recently and was disappointed at the lack of diesel-like off-on sudden grunt. But the stopwatch said otherwise, it was the choc-box keeping the motor on-boost that deceived me. My Pop-in-law’s 140 CR Octy manual has more torque moments going up the box, but its nowhere near as fast.

Having said that, the VRS CR Octy deleted itself from my list of possibles for the next car by simply not having enough sport in it. Getting back in my Furb afterwards was wonderful. I will have to try a petrol Octy for a fair comparison.