Well since the Inspection Manual doesn't say that it's only for factory-fitted lights, it also applies to retrofit HID lights since they don't have a special section of the test. If there were separate rules for retrofit lights, then these rules would also be listed, but they aren't, so it's fair to argue that they're covered by the standard rules. Which also ties in with your "aftermarket must be of the same standard as factory-fit" argument, if factory-fits aren't required to have washers, then you can't expect aftermarkets to require them either.

if you are quoteing from the currany manual then the info you are using will be out of date on the 1st when the manual get updated with all the new test items

Read the manual. It's issue date is January 1st 2012, so it's the new manual for next year. It's been made public in order to notify vehicle owners of what's changing and what they may fail on in 2012 which wouldn't have failed in previous years. Complete with black bars to show new/changed sections.

edit - for the record, this is the manual I'm using: http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/MOT%20Inspection%20Manual.pdf

The issue date is 01/01/2012 and it has the black bars to show new sections. Since this one has no DRAFT markings, hasn't changed for several weeks and it takes effect in less than 24 hours, I'm assuming it is the final copy.

Edited 31 December, 201114 yr by gac

Read the manual. It's issue date is January 1st 2012, so it's the new manual for next year. It's been made public in order to notify vehicle owners of what's changing and what they may fail on in 2012 which wouldn't have failed in previous years. Complete with black bars to show new/changed sections.

its not the final edit they are changing it all the time

Shrug. That part on headlamps hasn't changed in weeks, I'm sure I could find other forums I've posted the same information on and the wording would be identical. The draft copies I saw were all heavily watermarked DRAFT, and said "Issue date TBA". I very much doubt that document will change massively, if at all, since legally it takes effect in 23 and a half hours.

edit - a post from November, showing a screenshot of that page of the PDF manual, with exactly the same wording. So even if the document is still being modified (which I very much doubt it is), they're not changing the part about headlights. So I stand by everything I've said above, and that levellers/washers aren't required for any HID lamp, whether it's factory-fitted or retrofitted.

Edited 31 December, 201114 yr by gac

tell that to VOSA im a tester and have had all the new testable items issued and that is on the list

Lmao! Not much of a tester then, i'm glad you never get to touch any of my cars.

Lmao! Not much of a tester then, i'm glad you never get to touch any of my cars.

Just to confirm and make sure I'm not going mad; you agree with the way I've read it? That these systems aren't required for any HID lamp, and that whatever else VOSA may "advise" elsewhere on their website, this MOT Inspection Manual is a definitive description of what gets tested and how (so anything not covered is not testable)?

Lmao! Not much of a tester then, i'm glad you never get to touch any of my cars.

wow thats a grown up thing to say

Just to confirm and make sure I'm not going mad; you agree with the way I've read it? That these systems aren't required for any HID lamp, and that whatever else VOSA may "advise" elsewhere on their website, this MOT Inspection Manual is a definitive description of what gets tested and how (so anything not covered is not testable)?

Yes I agree 100%.

Just to confirm and make sure I'm not going mad; you agree with the way I've read it? That these systems aren't required for any HID lamp, and that whatever else VOSA may "advise" elsewhere on their website, this MOT Inspection Manual is a definitive description of what gets tested and how (so anything not covered is not testable)?

i do yes and the manual dose contadict what was sent to our testing station

wow thats a grown up thing to say

Well if you're going to make things up like being a Class 4 tester at least read the manual first.

i do yes and the manual dose contadict what was sent to our testing station

Well a second ago you said that it wasn't the finished manual?

Also not all factory fitted xenons and HIDs had washers and levellers fitted so that would mean them having to have it retro fitted.

Well if you're going to make things up like being a Class 4 tester at least read the manual first.

make things up ? i was having a conversation with another member and all you can contribute is that you must be so proud

make things up ? i was having a conversation with another member and all you can contribute is that you must be so proud

I apologise, it was a bit of a off the cuff remark, I'm just sick of people claiming they are this or that and saying they are illegal when it's in black and white to say otherwise and as I have stated above some factory fitted vehicles didn't have washers or levellers.

I apologise, it was a bit of a off the cuff remark, I'm just sick of people claiming they are this or that and saying they are illegal when it's in black and white to say otherwise and as I have stated above some factory fitted vehicles didn't have washers or levellers.

well im not one of those people iv got 10 years in the motor trade and the last two iv been testing and im going of the info we get sent from vosa wich is stuff the public dont get to see. and its not the final manual vosa are going to be making changes to the manual for the next 3 months off the feed back thay get from testing stations

Edited 31 December, 201114 yr by nath17t

well im not one of those people iv got 10 years in the motor trade and the last two iv been testing and im going of the info we get sent from vosa wich is stuff the public dont get to see

Well I would be putting a complaint in to DfT then as they've sent you the wrong stuff and the local garage to me has the same as what gac posted.

If you failed a car after tomorrow for this you could land your testing station in some serious s%#t, not saying you would loose your licence or anything but could you imagine the DfT office when they received the complaint, their coffee would hit the ceiling!

I don't know why you are bothering arguing with him if he says he has an amendment to the rules and has a bulitin from VOSA to back it up he will not get in trouble with anyone. Unless you are a tester and get the bulitin's you will not know what's coming until it's done, VOSA have no obligation to update the public in advance as anyone with a standard car will have no worries. Manufacturers have legal compliance departments to deal with these reg and know what is and isn't legal or what is coming along.

I'd face up to the reality that an end to the time when you could get away with it is coming as it is inevitable.

Carl.

VOSA don't have an obligation to keep the public informed, no. HOWEVER, they are doing so off their own back by making the MOT Inspection Manual a public document and stating on the very first page that it can be used by vehicle owners to make sure their vehicles comply. And if they have chosen to do that then what they release does have to be accurate. Their lack of obligation would only cover them if they didn't want to release anything at all, saying "they're not obliged" doesn't then mean they can release misleading information, you're missing the point a bit

As has been said, if retrofit kits have to meet the same standards as factory-fit, and not all factory-fit cars had levelling/washers then it stands to reason that retrofits don't require them either. Backed up by the testers' comments (that the kits have to be done to the same standard), and also the manual

I don't know why you are bothering arguing with him if he says he has an amendment to the rules and has a bulitin from VOSA to back it up he will not get in trouble with anyone. Unless you are a tester and get the bulitin's you will not know what's coming until it's done, VOSA have no obligation to update the public in advance as anyone with a standard car will have no worries. Manufacturers have legal compliance departments to deal with these reg and know what is and isn't legal or what is coming along.

I'd face up to the reality that an end to the time when you could get away with it is coming as it is inevitable.

Carl.

Well they do really, don't they! If it means modifying a factory fitted car. And as I have already said, my local garage has the same docs as what gac and I have commented on, so how do you explain this?

I don't miss the point, it's an advisory and document and will have a release date and version number which meant it was correct at the time of publishing (there will be a disclaimer that says as such), this doesn't preclude VOSA's right to make updates and lodge updated versions with the Government as the official document and publish to the web later.

Which factory fitted kits did not have self levelling and wash? My Accord-R had HID's a few years ago and my father in laws LS430 has them but they both have levelling and wash systems and these are the only cars I have looked at closely with them. Add to the fact that even the lowly Furby factory kit has levelling and wash would kind of indicate that it was required to be BS and CE compliant and able to be sold in the EU and UK legally.

Carl

Well they do really, don't they! If it means modifying a factory fitted car. And as I have already said, my local garage has the same docs as what gac and I have commented on, so how do you explain this?

You have answered your own question there.

They have zero obligation to anyone trying to modify outside of factory specification.

I would suggest that your local garage isn't an MOT testing station and not hooked up to the VOSA computer where the bulitins are sent. Anyone can print out the document and use it as a guide but unless you are a testing station you will not have access the latest info.

I am actually sitting next to my mate who is a 20 year experienced mechanic and was a tester for 5 years until last year too (so I can't confirm the specific bulitin as his current job is not in a testing station) and can confirm what the OP put about how updates are carried out is totally correct.

Carl.

We'll see what happens. If they sent out a "update" then I'd expect it to have surfaced by now they are so talked about.

My tester said they were coming down harder on "beam patterns" being incorrect but washers wouldn't be needed. Essentialy saying if you have the right light units correcting the beam pattern it'll be ok, but sticking HID's in a normal light could fail. I had an advisory to this effect (currently have a cheap hid kit) but he said HE would be failing them soon. That's a big point though, one MOT tester can say one thing, another can say something else, alot is open to interpretation

We'll see what happens. If they sent out a "update" then I'd expect it to have surfaced by now they are so talked about.

My tester said they were coming down harder on "beam patterns" being incorrect but washers wouldn't be needed. Essentialy saying if you have the right light units correcting the beam pattern it'll be ok, but sticking HID's in a normal light could fail. I had an advisory to this effect (currently have a cheap hid kit) but he said HE would be failing them soon. That's a big point though, one MOT tester can say one thing, another can say something else, alot is open to interpretation

A sensible view, but as with all government departments (and I've worked in a couple as a subby) they are not the fastest at updating docs though so it may take a while for the changes to be added to the official docs, reviewed, signed off and then posted to the web (this could take a few weeks).

The only way to be sure would be for the tester to paste the text of the bulitin here as to what should be tested and how. It maybe specific in that if HID lights are fitted that they must be fitted with working washing and self levelling systems (beam pattern would already be covered). There isn't too much in there to be left open to interpretation, but unless the bulitin is posted here we won't know.

Carl.

You have answered your own question there.

They have zero obligation to anyone trying to modify outside of factory specification.

I would suggest that your local garage isn't an MOT testing station and not hooked up to the VOSA computer where the bulitins are sent. Anyone can print out the document and use it as a guide but unless you are a testing station you will not have access the latest info.

I am actually sitting next to my mate who is a 20 year experienced mechanic and was a tester for 5 years until last year too (so I can't confirm the specific bulitin as his current job is not in a testing station) and can confirm what the OP put about how updates are carried out is totally correct.

Carl.

You missed the point of my post, I meant cars came factory fitted with xenons/HIDs and no washers ie 2001 (old shape) Nissan primeras, some had washers, others didn't, I owned one.

It's a bit late for updates to come out now though isn't it! It goes live tomorrow and I can confirm that the November issue is the current one.

I Think this discussion is getting a bit out of hand.

Tbh i would really like HID lights for the VRS for better looks but as mentioned i don't want them to fail an MOT. Is there a kit you can buy that are self levelling? i can't quite understand why headlight washers is a requirment, what difference will that make if your car is already clean?

I've been looking on google and can't find projector lights :/ Guess tbh prob should just leave the car alone

Furthermore i did come across these:

http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/product.php?xProd=33438&xSec=286

The only thing that concerns me is there is hardly a description :/ they look like projectors but are not stated anywhere, also if a projector died i can't see any replacements... Would be silly to buy the whole unit again