Undertaking. Is it illegal in the UK?

[KenONeill]

Posted this in another thread here but though I'd copy it over just to show how easy it is to be an @rse!

"I have to put my hand up and admit a bit of a "senior moment" when joining a motorway yesterday.

It was at that horrible junction in Glasgow here the slip road from the A82 joins the M8 in the fast lane! After safely joining the motorway I stayed in lane and carried on at about 60 for a few miles and was grumping at cars undertaking me before I realised what I was doing!!!!! major fail............. "

if you stayed in lane you'd have came off at cathedral street!

also the limit there is 50, if people want to go faster they cannot blame you for their lack of progress

tbh you did the safest thing by staying in lane - even if you think you were a "lane hog"

As STSkoda points out, if you enter at Gt Western Road eastbound and stay in lane (4 from memory), you come off at the next junction!

Also, the speed limit is 50 then 60 for about 6 miles from there. Are you seriously claiming that you spent 6 miles in the outside lane of a motorway without realising the fact?

[slider]

No, I realised what I was doing when I came to the next junction! Which exits from lane 4.

[KenONeill]

No, I realised what I was doing when I came to the next junction! Which exits from lane 4.

I used to do evening classes in a college on Alexandra Parade, and caught people out regularly along that stretch, as I drove up from Charing X at 20ish with everyone else, then went out to drive quick, say 40mph, along to Townhead where I was coming off anyway, and pretty much always got several people following me then saying "censored" as they realised that I'd only done that because i wanted the exit!

[JCP]

At an indicated 70 many veicles are doing 63-5 mph. The best illustration of this is when in an average camera section where many will be doing 45 ish. Undertaking (not itself a specific offence but a possible act of careless driving) is always done at the risk of the undertaking driver and will often attract police attention-anyone who is observed doing it by a marked police vehicle has also demonstrated poor observation.

[slider]

At an indicated 70 many veicles are doing 63-5 mph.

I use my sat nav as a more accurate speed guide and where appropriate set the cruise control based on it. Particularly handy is Average Camera sections are quiet enough to use cruise.

[karlbar2k]

My 4x4 is doing GPS confirmed 70 at an indicated 79 but SWMBO's A2 is doing 70 at indicated 73 so I do have to be careful when changing cars

[snow_muncher]

Why?

bubble driving

basically folks that cannot cope with spatial orientation on a multi-lane road ( or anywhere else come to that ... )

don't expect it to get any better :(

[chicken_eyebrow]

Now I have the Feli I find I'm "undertaking" occasionally through no fault of my own.

If I'm doing 70 in the first lane and approaching someone doing 60 in the 2nd lane then it's pretty dangerous to move across all three lanes to overtake them, especially when there are much faster cars overtaking in lane 3 - the Feli is so much slower than my old Octy that it just gets in their way. So I just sail by them in the first lane. As ScoobyChris pointed out, a quick flash before the maneuvre should stop them pulling into the first lane unexpectedly.

Often that means half a mile down the road I will then pull out into lane 2 to overtake another slow car in the first lane so yes technically I've "undertaken" that first car. But if I can see I would need to do an overtake soon I wouldn't bother passing the first car in the first place - I'd always make sure that car I've "undertaken" is a speck in my mirror before pulling into the 2nd lane again.

Obviously this situation could be avoided if people used lane discipline and stayed in the 1st lane if doing the speed limit (or under it). But I see it a lot, particularly late at night.

[Raf_]

I know a couple of times I've been doing 65 on a duel carriageway and come across 6 or 7 cars in a line doing 60, I've just continued at 65 past them then overtaken the car that the lead car is still way behind lol

Sent from my Galaxy S3, not a Crapple!

[Jabozuma]

Just found this thread and driving M25 very often, especially the stretch from J23 to J10, through H'throw with 4 lanes I ALWAYS experience a situation of lane 4 is full of cars, vans usually, lane 1 has some lorries on it, lane 3 a moron doing 50mph and lane 2 empty.

What I do is follow the code, drive to the left at all times unless I need to overtake. So where is undertaking here?!?! What a lot of cobblers! I rarely get to NSL, just too much traffic.

Here is some law for you, found it quite interesting. In a nutshell coppers can pull you off for anything, even sneezing repeatedly behind the wheel, drinking water or scratching your back side, hell if you check your mirrors or blind spot too often the can charge you for CD10 on the grounds you were not looking forward sufficiently!

CD10

Driving without due care and attention..........

3-9

CD20

Driving without reasonable consideration for other road users..........

3-9

CD30

Driving without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other road users..........

3-9

DD40

Dangerous Driving..........

3-11*

DD90

Furious driving

3-9

MS60

Offences not covered by other codes..........

As Appropriate

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/pbd_policy.html#_11

http://www.motorlawyers.co.uk/offences/dangerous_driving.htm

1) There must be a physical injury as a result.

2) It can be committed anywhere (it doesn't have to be on a road or public place).

3) The wording is 'Whosoever having the charge of any carriage or vehicle, shall, by wanton or furious driving or racing, or other wilful misconduct, or by wilful neglect, do or cause to be done any bodily harm to any person whatsoever shall be guilty of an offence'.

4) Wanton is described as "without any lawful motive and being thoughtless as to the possible consequences".

DD90 is the gem here, look at this

http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/archive/2003/01/20/Worcestershire+Archive/7664026.Convicted_of__furious_driving_/

You are obviously screwed is there is light sign saying "Congestion. Stay in lane" - no excuses there :(

[Farnz]

A question for the people saying undertaking is illegal under all circumstances; would you explain what I should have done in the following situation to avoid undertaking while still driving safely:

I was driving in the left hand lane of the M40 at 70 mph; there was a HGV behind me, slowly falling behind. A car overtaking in the lane immediately to my right is travelling at speeds well in excess of 80 mph (I would guess speed of around 100 mph). As we approach a bridge up ahead, the car overtaking passes me, and gets to around 2 car lengths in front of me before spotting the marked police van on the bridge and braking heavily, to the point where their vehicle's automatic hazard warning lights on emergency braking come on.

I made the judgement call that with the other vehicle braking hard but staying in lane, and a potentially fully loaded HGV behind me, I was safer continuing at 70 mph indicated speed and undertaking them quickly (I was past in under a second) than I would have been braking to avoid the undertake manoeuvre. I did not have the space available at the time the car started braking to safely move out two lanes and overtake them, and further felt that doing so would increase the risk that I collided with the car that was braking heavily.

FWIW, the police ignored me; I did not see the overtaking car again on my journey, so I do not know whether they slowed down to a safe and legal speed, or if the police chose to arrest them for their low standard of driving.

[KenONeill]

A question ... of driving.

Checking the Highway Code (rather than relying on memory) shows your reaction time at 70mph as being 21m, or 4 or 5 car lengths (using typical modern or HC cars), so you'd be part-way past this guy before you could get on the brakes!

[Chorlton]

He was being a **** so you did exactly the correct thing.

[slider]

You have not made a concious decision to undertake in order to pull past and away front the other car, but have taken corrective action to prevent an accident even if that corrective action was the decision to take no action. Whether or not it is technically correct as per the Highway code is not really relevant.

The much (all?) of the HC is not law but a code of good practice. If you are judged by the boys in blue to be driving dangerously, or whatever, then the fact that you have not followed accepted good practice will lend wait to any charges brought against you. In the situation you describe it would be extremely difficult to prove that be breaching the HC you were driving dangerously.

The situation were undertaking is an issue is when you deliberately use an inside lane to pass a slower vehicle in otherwise free flowing traffic. - i.e car(s) in outside lane at 60 mph, inside lane clear and you use inside lane to pass these cars. Whether or not the car in the outside is a lane hogger is irrelevant to you decision - you have deliberately undertaken.

Having said that I would also like to see the weight of the law brought against lane hoggers for driving without due care and attention to other road users.

[Raf_]

Thought the law was you could undertake if the traffic in the other lane was congested and going slower than the NSL?

Sent from my Galaxy S2 not a Crapple!

[Jabozuma]

The situation were undertaking is an issue is when you deliberately use an inside lane to pass a slower vehicle in otherwise free flowing traffic. - i.e car(s) in outside lane at 60 mph, inside lane clear and you use inside lane to pass these cars. Whether or not the car in the outside is a lane hogger is irrelevant to you decision - you have deliberately undertaken.

Having said that I would also like to see the weight of the law brought against lane hoggers for driving without due care and attention to other road users.

I'd not agree here. HC states that you should drive on the left unless you are overtaking a slower moving vehicle. Situation when the fastest lane is congested and you move to slow lane lane AND STAY THERE does not count as undertaking even if lane 1 is moving faster than the fast lane. Undertaking is when you drive the fast lane, get a line hog in front, move left to overtake and back to fast lane. You also not undertaking if you just minding your business and driving whatever speed in slow lane and so happens that the fast lane becomes slower than the "slow" one. Consider alternative, start changing lanes furiously to make sure nobody on our right goes any slower than you? Start breaking suddenly to much speeds or slow down? If you did that you'd be stopped for dangerous driving mate:)

[Raf_]

That's ok then lol

Quite often undertake cars in that case lol

Sent from my Galaxy S2 not a Crapple!

[slider]

I'd not agree here. HC states that you should drive on the left unless you are overtaking a slower moving vehicle. Situation when the fastest lane is congested and you move to slow lane lane AND STAY THERE does not count as undertaking even if lane 1 is moving faster than the fast lane. Undertaking is when you drive the fast lane, get a line hog in front, move left to overtake and back to fast lane. You also not undertaking if you just minding your business and driving whatever speed in slow lane and so happens that the fast lane becomes slower than the "slow" one. Consider alternative, start changing lanes furiously to make sure nobody on our right goes any slower than you? Start breaking suddenly to much speeds or slow down? If you did that you'd be stopped for dangerous driving mate:)

Is that not what I said but in a different way??????

[Jabozuma]

<br /><br />Is that not what I said but in a different way??????

<br /><br />Sorry mate, perhaps it didn't come across for me:). But still if a copper stops you and you give him an attitude he/she will be able to give you grief based on almost anything.<br />I am getting (not so much now) pulled over very often and the only points I ever had on my license were from a hand held speed gun I spotted too late-couldn't apologise and ar$e lick my way out of that one lol. It just pays off to be humble, apologetic, full of appraisal to their knowledge (lol) and appreciative of the advice with a generous helping of self flagellation. In most cases these guys are power tripping each time they stop you and ARE keen to show you how benevolent, forgiving and generous they are by preaching their advice for a while ( you must look like the most eager listener in the land nodding like there was no tomorrow!) and then you can continue onwards with your spirited drive <img src='http://www.briskoda.net/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/emoticon-0105-wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />. Mind you, if you are smoking your tires from every lights and doing 60 in 30 zone no amount of brown nosing is going to pull you out of trouble lol. Edited 13 October, 2012 by Jabozuma

[Jabozuma]

Posts editing from tapatalk doesn't really work!

[dan4291]

My personal opinion (and I know it contradicts the law!) is that undertaking is NOT a dangerous maneuver, unexpected by most drivers yes, but not dangerous. When I was learning to drive 8 years ago, I was taught by my instructor to check my blind spot whenever I was changing lane, both going to the inside lane and outside. I would hope that most drivers would check their mirrors and blind spots when changing lanes, therefore they would see anyone overtaking them or undertaking them. In reality that's not always the case but I can hope! If I see someone dawdling in the middle lane however, or even the outside lane, I will undertake them unless they move over. I don't see why they should disrupt the flow of traffic because they see a truck going slower than them 2 miles ahead and can't be bothered to move over!

[Raf_]

I drove in Singapore and Malaysia this year and undertaking is legal, traffics a lot smoother and didn't bother me one bit to have cars and buses undertaking me, should really make it properly legal in this country

Sent from my Galaxy S3, not a Crapple!

[Jabozuma]

That is the problem, people do not have proper motorway driving training, do check mirrors ad blind spots (most wouldn't even know what the hell that is lol) and are simply inconsiderate to other road users-line hogging, driving 4th lane on 5 lane stretches of M25 with other lanes empty is simply RUDE!

[KenONeill]

That is the problem, people do not have proper motorway driving training, do check mirrors ad blind spots (most wouldn't even know what the hell that is lol) and are simply inconsiderate to other road users-line hogging, driving 4th lane on 5 lane stretches of M25 with other lanes empty is simply RUDE!

How much on-road training does it need to be able to understand "Keep left unless overtaking"? https://www.gov.uk/motorways-253-to-273/lane-discipline-264-to-266 Rule 264 seems clear to me.

[Jabozuma]

How much on-road training does it need to be able to understand "Keep left unless overtaking"? https://www.gov.uk/motorways-253-to-273/lane-discipline-264-to-266 Rule 264 seems clear to me.

Touche!

Just tells you all about intelligence of some road users and level of arrogance and rudeness...

Some people should simply not be allowed to drive!

Problem is there is no alternative. Compared to continental Europe public transport in this country is the biggest institutionalised scam in existence!

I am on a train right now. Had to pay £23 for Day Travel Card. That is £5,200 a year ( I know there are carnets etc, that figure is just for the sake of argument ) for overcrowded, smelly, dirty, without ventilation and most usually late or cancelled commuter service....