The depo ones, part of the original group buy. Cant knock them, my mate has genuine ones on his fabia and you cant tell the difference, build quality is good and the output of both look identical.

In the very early days of factory fitted HIDs, there were some cars sold without levelling and washers so I can't see the MOT regs changing so much that they would fail. The only problems I'd expect to see is HID bulbs being used in the original headlamps (so no projector), they usually don't have a nice clean pattern with a lot of light bleeding out which would potentially be a fail.

Not sure why this is going on. Whole thread was answered in post #10

Not sure why this is going on. Whole thread was answered in post #10

It's the internet.... where nothing is simple.

Garage 1 IS wrong........If they are NOT fitted they cannot be tested + thus cannot be failed.

.........Also if a tester is in ANY doubt as to whether an item would fail or not then the official VOSA stance is they should always ADVISE unless they are certain it is a fail.........

Just to respond to your reply: In the case of "If they are NOT fitted they cannot be tested + thus cannot be failed." Garage 1) was adamant that the fail would be issued because they were missing and were required, and not simply because they couldn't be tested.

If, for example, the driver's seat belt was missing (and therefore unable to be tested) the test would still be a FAIL because a driver's seat belt is required. Ditto the auto-levelling and headlamp washers are REQUIRED if HiDs are fitted (according to Garage 1)

As for your 2nd comment, the garage was in no doubt whatsoever and were certain that the test was a FAIL so were not prepared to pass it with an advisory. Unlike Garage 3) who were.

My point was that three seperate testing stations gave three completely different views and I agree with you that there should be standardization on these matters but obviously there isn't, and that's not good.

Just to respond to your reply: In the case of "If they are NOT fitted they cannot be tested + thus cannot be failed." Garage 1) was adamant that the fail would be issued because they were missing and were required, and not simply because they couldn't be tested.

If, for example, the driver's seat belt was missing (and therefore unable to be tested) the test would still be a FAIL because a driver's seat belt is required. Ditto the auto-levelling and headlamp washers are REQUIRED if HiDs are fitted (according to Garage 1)

As for your 2nd comment, the garage was in no doubt whatsoever and were certain that the test was a FAIL so were not prepared to pass it with an advisory. Unlike Garage 3) who were.

My point was that three seperate testing stations gave three completely different views and I agree with you that there should be standardization on these matters but obviously there isn't, and that's not good.

This^^^ would be an alright get out clause for garage 1 IF there was a fail specifically for headlight washers/ self levelers MISSING (like there is for MANDATORY seatbelts)...

... but as fordfan has pointed out near the start of this thread there is NO specific fail for MISSING... only for Inoporative... so he would not have a leg to stand of if he failed them for not being there but had to sellect "inop" as the reason for failure

Quote from "fordfan" (direct from the uptodate computer MOT guidebook)

"The reason for rejection applicable to washers/levelling is:

"A headlamp levelling or cleaning  device inoperative or otherwise  obviously defective."

Which begs the question 'If it isn't there, how can it be considered defective?' "

Hope this helps

Matt

I suggest that if you have retro fit HIDS that when you go to the MOT station that you have a copy of the MOT rules for testing HIDS.

And IF the numpy wants to fail you for not having washers or self leveling fitted you show him the rules and tell him to stuff them where the sun don't shine..........

Or get yourself a copy of Car Mechanics monthly for October 2012.........it has a whole section on how to do a new MOT......including HIDS....page 62

Quote;

Vehicles with HIDS or LED dipped beam headlamps could be fitted with headlamp washers and a suspension or headlamp self-leveling system. If these are fitted, they must work, although the MOT instruction manual states "It is accepted that it may not be possible to readily determine the function of self-leveling systems. In such cases, the benifit of the doubt must be given".

SO if the washers and leveling systems are not fitted........they can't be tested and therefore not failed

They will just test them as per a standard set of halogens!

Not sure why this is going on. Whole thread was answered in post #10

FYI - it was answered incorrectly.

To respond to OP's question, to retrofit HID lights legally you have to fit a complete headlamp unit designed for HID with corresponding CE approval, have self levelling and headlamp washers.

Under current uk vehicle law, HID and LED headlamps are illegal, however, dft makes an exception for European type approved new cars and for retrofitting if your follow above guidelines.

Also, passing an MOT does not make your car legal.

Cheers

Steve

Also, passing an MOT does not make your car legal.

I know that a car if self build, re-build, and all new manufactuerd cars get inspected by VOSA???.......and type approved???..........then we rely on the MOT........no MOT......... = no TAX disc.............

........I really can't see how/where a car that is legal and has a retro fit HID kit (bulbs/ballasts) fitted and then passes a current MOT can then be deemed "illegal"............

Lol ^^^^ "stevehd" .. if u read the 1st post the OP clearly asks if HID's should pass an MOT if tested correctly....

...to which my answer IS correct .. it should pass the MOT assuming the beam pattern is correct.

Untill people on here find any cases of people actually being pulled + fined etc for having HID's without washer jets etc.. then i would't get too ahead of yourself + the LAWS u claim exist...

If the police really had a problem with HID's etc.. they wouldn't retro fit them to there vans (without headlight washers) which i have seen many ...

Look, people fail mot with them, people pass an mot with them.

I asked my mate (Mot tester) and he said only a fud would fail me for mine, beam pattern is ok, not excessively scattered.

They can only check for working auto levelling and washers...if there fitted. If there not there how can they check to see if there working?!?!

This argument will keep going and going!

I have them fitted at my risk, if i get caught i will take it on the chin no arguements.. it will pass its mot though!

People take risks everyday like speeding! your choice to speed you take the fine and points! you fit the hids you take the fine if you get caught.

Simples

Untill people on here find any cases of people actually being pulled + fined etc for having HID's without washer jets etc.. then i would't get too ahead of yourself + the LAWS u claim exist...

With that logic it's impossible to argue against! ;)

The law I 'claim' exists is... The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989. This is the current enforceable law for vehicle lighting in the UK. HID & LED for that matter are not mentioned as a permitted lighting and are therefore not legally allowed. New vehicles are legal with HID as they are permitted under European type approval and being part of the EU, the UK parliament has agreed to abide by these laws.

So as you can see all lighting not mentioned in The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 is illegal, unless it's for a new car and then EU type approvals will have priority.

Therefore retro fitting HID's to any age of vehicle is not legally permitted in UK. However, as explained in the current fact sheet on this matter, http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/aftermarket-hid-headlamps.pdf , the DfT are willing to accept retro fitting of HID headlamps if they comply with the following quoted from the linked doc...

"1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.

2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).

3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.

In practice this means:

1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to

ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. - who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.

2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self- levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.

3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly in the same way as any other headlamp.

Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.

In summary: it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above."

So as you can see it's perfectly clear what the DfT's stance is on this. There's no ambiguity and no room for interpretation on this.

I don't have to claim they exist, as they do ;)

Cheers

Steve

I have them fitted at my risk, if i get caught i will take it on the chin no arguements.. it will pass its mot though!

People take risks everyday like speeding! your choice to speed you take the fine and points! you fit the hids you take the fine if you get caught.

Think of this scenario then. You are driving home from work one night. Idiot comes round the bend travelling too fast, loses control, glances off your car straight into a lamp post at 60mph killing two of his three passengers.

In police interviews he claims he was dazzled by your lights and lost control. This is backed up by his surviving passenger. Police investigations find that you have illegally fitted HID lights to your car and charge you with manslaughter. You got to court and get six years in prison, out in three if you are good, but with a criminal record for manslaughter.

A bit more serious than points and a fine. Think this doesn't happen, look up the guy that fitted incorrect parts to his land rover, had an accident, lost several children, convicted of death by dangerous driving and sentenced to two years in prison.

But as you said, it's your choice....

Steven Steven Steven Steven Steven...You are my hero :love:

Knew somebody would put an end to this crap!

I still have mine fitted in normal head lights cause im hard as ****

I would love to see this backed up by a traffic police officer who is willing to fine/ arrest someone for the "offence" of having retro-fitted HID bulbs without washers... when the vehicle is question has a full legal MOT to back it up....

... i think ill take my chances ;)

Maybe u should open another thread (to go with all the others) about the DFT's view on HID's in 1989...

.. because this thread is refering to the MOTs view on HIDs... in 2012 ;) :D

Think of this scenario then. You are driving home from work one night. Idiot comes round the bend travelling too fast, loses control, glances off your car straight into a lamp post at 60mph killing two of his three passengers.

In police interviews he claims he was dazzled by your lights and lost control. This is backed up by his surviving passenger. Police investigations find that you have illegally fitted HID lights to your car and charge you with manslaughter. You got to court and get six years in prison, out in three if you are good, but with a criminal record for manslaughter.

A bit more serious than points and a fine. Think this doesn't happen, look up the guy that fitted incorrect parts to his land rover, had an accident, lost several children, convicted of manslaughter and spent several years in prison.

But as you said, it's your choice....

When people are killed in road accidents, the police investigate into the moments before the crash. They would be able to determine the rough speed of both cars. So the driver of the car who lost control due to "being dazzled" would get a bullocking, or would be charged themself.

But then i could argue that my car has an mot so didnt know they were illegal....round and round and round the circles we go.....

.. because this thread is refering to the MOTs view on HIDs... in 2012 ;) :D

Title of post is asking "The legality of retro-fitted xenon HiD lights"

As stated above, passing an MOT has nothing to do with a car being road legal. So even if you pass an MOT it's still illegal. It's the same if you fit a set of tyres that go outside the wheel arch. They'll pass an MOT, but are illegal so you can still get fined for this.

When people are killed in road accidents, the police investigate into the moments before the crash. They would be able to determine the rough speed of both cars. So the driver of the car who lost control due to "being dazzled" would get a bullocking, or would be charged themself.

It's a hypothetical situation to demonstrate that the worst case scenario is not just a fine and points, so it pointless discussing how it would be treated by police or courts.

But then i could argue that my car has an mot so didnt know they were illegal....round and round and round the circles we go.....

Have fun trying that one I'm sure Police, CPS, and the courts are always level headed, sympathetic to mitigating circumstances etc etc

Look I'm not condoning it, just simply clarifying the legality. How you want to react to that is your choice, and if you think having an MOT pass absolves you from all vehicle laws go ahead.

I called 3 different MoT garages askingthe following question:

"Are headlamp washers and auto-levelling required if HiDs are retro-fitted in order to pass an Mot test?"

OP's opening post ^^ ...

Give HIDs a search on briskoda and u will find ALOT of threads u can post in about the DFT... but this one is... as previously stated.. about the MOT test.

I am just responding to your claim that my post (10) was incorrect.. which it wasn't.

So just answer me this then Matt. Do you think a car that's fitted with HID lamps into a halogen headlamp unit or alternatively with a CE approved HID headlamps, but without either self levelling or headlamp washers that passes an MOT test is legal?

No ^^

.. but iv answered this on previous HID threads (for which there are many)

There is always confusion on here about HIDs at MOT time...

So i clear it up in post 10... only for people to give confusing conflicting answers regarding legalities not relating to the MOT.

I know as well as anyone that passing an MOT does not make ur car legal in the eyes of the law...

but...

the point of this particular thread is should all MOT stations pass or fail HIDs without washers etc.. + the answer to that is they should pass them unless the beam pattern is incorrect (see post 10)

The thing is you HAVE to have an MOT every year regardless...

...whereas the legal side is IF you get pulled AND that particular police officer is willing to call apon the HID law in place...

You will find that alot of people have failed MOTs when they shouldn't...

But no one to my knowledge (or googles knowledge ) has actually been fined/ arrested for said offence...

Iv got hids fitted and car past with them in without washer jets so depends where u go to be honest x

red and green deffo be seen

No ^^

.. but iv answered this on previous HID threads (for which there are many)

There is always confusion on here about HIDs at MOT time...

So i clear it up in post 10... only for people to give confusing conflicting answers regarding legalities not relating to the MOT.

I know as well as anyone that passing an MOT does not make ur car legal in the eyes of the law...

but...

the point of this particular thread is should all MOT stations pass or fail HIDs without washers etc.. + the answer to that is they should pass them unless the beam pattern is incorrect (see post 10)

The thing is you HAVE to have an MOT every year regardless...

...whereas the legal side is IF you get pulled AND that particular police officer is willing to call apon the HID law in place...

You will find that alot of people have failed MOTs when they shouldn't...

But no one to my knowledge (or googles knowledge ) has actually been fined/ arrested for said offence...

I should have worded my initial post better. I wasn't questioning the logic of your post, just devonutopia's statement that it answers the thread was incorrect as the title was also questioning legality.

Cheers

Steve

The current MOT Testers Handbook states that a car retro fitted with HID lights will pass an MOT subject to it passing the beam setting, glare and colour test. It specifically states thar self-levelling and washers are NOT required, but that if fitted they MUST work.

As for the EU C & U Regs, I understand that an Ammendment was "passed" last year to allow this.