Central heating boiler - time to change?

[Jabozuma]

Why is it the states problem to replace a private owner's boiler?

To reduce CO2 emissions and limit the amount of fuel burnt to heat up the atmosphere, why do you think AD Part L of Building Regs is updated almost yearly now with more and more stringent thermal performance targets?

[cheezemonkhai]

To reduce CO2 emissions and limit the amount of fuel burnt to heat up the atmosphere, why do you think AD Part L of Building Regs is updated almost yearly now with more and more stringent thermal performance targets?

Building regs don't apply to old buildings unless you're doing work.

Anyway, surely using decent insulation etc would make more sense first.

Also at the end of the day, there is little point to these schemes as they all put money on your gas bill. You end up using less but paying the same or more.

At the end of the day, the CO2 that goes into making a car or boiler is higher than the CO2 produced during it's life. Changing while it's still working is not going to help the CO2, just a company sell a new boiler.

Giving a company that is very inefficient.

Also why manipulate the market, there is no need.

Take being green and think of is in terms of money saving.

When your boiler breaks, you can use one that uses lots of fuel, or one that uses a lot less fuel for the same amount of heating.

Assuming the price is right, you'll pick the latter.

The market will deal with it itself.

If you want to manipulate the market, then you do the all new boilers sold must meet a minimum standard, or face a purchase tax of a few hundred quid.

Edited 14 November, 2012 by cheezemonkhai

[Jabozuma]

What I consider to be lamentable these days is that manufacturers produce their items for a certain and usually very short life span to keep the business growing. This constantly uses new resources as recycling is still marginal despite all the drive. Not so long ago things were built to last which was really ecological. That energy, CO2 embodied within a long lasting product was not going to waste after few years as it does now!

If it works and you are a frugal user no point in changing. If it breaks and you are a heave duty user ( a family in a decent size house ) then it makes massive sense. In case of boilers recycling rate should be pretty high as they are all metal and some heave duty plastics.

Building Regs apply if your are doing any work to buildings, which includes services so if you are changing your boiler it has to be of certain efficiency, can't bothered for a figure .

And yes, insulation makes the most sense. To achieve a passive building is easier and cheaper than what passes for established knowledge in popular belief.

In the end I do believe we need to do something to reduce human kind derived pollution of Earth ecosystem. I am no Eco Warrior of any kind but do chase my family to switch off lights etc when they leave the room . When they went for the last Half Term break I switched the heating off and was simply wearing a single jumper - still temps didn't get below 15C .

[Xavier]

Whoa! This thread's gone a bit more mental than I had anticipated.

OCScene, I'm still alive No disrespect, but do you know how the Baxi Solo 2 PF boilers are assembled? I doubt it, because if you did, you'd know that the front of the combustion box is designed to be easily removed. The instruction manual (which states should be left to the end user) describes how to do it. I'm not going anywhere near the burner, nor the gas valves or mixture setting screws

Well, turned out the problem was indeed twofold.

1. The hot water pump had gone seriously wrong - as soon as I turned on the socket switch, the RCD flipped. So I've now installed a single-impellor Grundfos / Watermill pump. There's slightly less pressure (but still enough for a shower), yet it's nearly silent compared to the other one!

2. The PCB of the boiler. I was lucky and found a plumbing / heating place selling a refurbished board. Yes Mark, it is to replace the board you got for me all those years ago!

After some jiggery-pokery with simplifying the crazy pump plumbing, the new pump is operational. It's around 400W from memory on full load, so the 3A breaker shared with the boiler programmer isn't a problem.

Fitted the PCB, fired it all up and all's working

Left it running over the weekend, all ok.

SWMBO dropped me off at the airport Sunday evening, and just as I was about to turn my phone off on the plane for take off, she sense me a message as she had just got home to find no power, went upstairs to the bedroom and found some water on the lower casing of the boiler. So problem is still there or elsewhere.

My worry is that it's the heat exchanger which might have cracks that are normally OK but after a long period of running, the increased pressure might make it leak slightly. Apparently the PCB was slightly wet which surprises me as I had carefully put it back in its box so not sure how the water got to it.

But it's meant that SWMBO's now bought a small electric heater and stayed in the bedroom. I'll have another look at it when I get home tomorrow. A new heat exchanger is around £200-250 so it's starting to get expensive for an old tech / less efficient boiler. but the cost to change is going to be over £2k I reckon and as I'd like to move over the next year or two, I wouldn't get the investment back at all unless I could sell the house at a slightly increased price on the basis that there's a brand new super efficient boiler which has just been installed...

[Jabozuma]

As you said, brand new boiler is a good selling point!

Do your sums and see what is best for you, no point pumping money into that old dog of a heating appliance lol

[OCScene]

I installed hundreds of Solo 2's in the early 90's and have a contract to repair most of the ones I installed so yes i know how easy the front combustion case come off. Its still not meant to be taken off by someone not competnet to perform the basic safety checks on a gas appliancxe such as yourself. Dont feel too special to be possesion of the appliance instructions. it's part of the Gas Safety Installation and Use Regs to leave the instructions with a customer when the aplliance is installed. The installer would of broken the regs if he has walked off with them which makes your point invalid.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I would suggest paying approx £40 for a professional opinon on the problem and get the problem sorted. It's you poor wife I feel for having to sit in a stone cold house due to her husband trying to save a few quid here and there, clearly getting out of his depth and getting it wrong. I would say, speaking from experience, that the heat exchanger is leaking and that you have just wasted a circuit board on this problem and that too with be broken due to the water damage. The burners can split on these which caused a hot spot on the heat exchanger making it warp/crack, but seeing as you seem to know it all Ill leave it to you!

[Xavier]

I'm not trying to save a few pennies and I don't like leaving a cold house to the girlfriend either!

Having had another look at it, it is the heat exchanger that's gone so now looking for options on where to eventually move the boiler to unless you can get condensing boilers with a small pump to pump out the condensate through to the drain present in the attick... If not, then I reckon it will have to be moved.

Will do some research and get some opinions.

Thanks for the replies

[OCScene]

You can get a remote condensate pump-about £50.00. Boilers with an integral condensate pump tend to be floor mounted versions so not really a direct swap for what you have.

http://onlineshop.plumbspares.co.uk/sauermann-si-1820-condensate-pump-333-p.asp?gclid=CMbj7vzT0bMCFU3HtAod7DMASA

Edited 15 November, 2012 by OCScene

[Xavier]

Had BG come round for an inspection and quote. They've suggested replacing with a conventional boiler and adding a condensate pump. Price is rather steep (more than I was expecting, despite their recommendations), but it's a good starting point. Getting a few more quotes in and will then chose.

There goes my Christmas present budget and then some!

[OCScene]

I can normally beat BG by abou 1k. Other plumbers will be able to easily. Don't be fooled into the Worcester route either. They are ok boilers but no better than boilers half their price. Make sure a system filter is in the price and at least 2 bottles of quality branded inhibitor.

[Xavier]

The chap who came round asked whether I had a preference for a particular brand and did point out that whatever I had heard, there's no need to go down a Worcester route - he recommended a newer Baxi conventional boiler as it was cheap (by BG standards) and actually more efficient.

He also said that my vented hot water tank (green tank) was good so no need to change. Just needed to add a condensate pump which would then pump up into the attick and back down through the main soil pipe.

What did irk me slightly was when he stongly pushed for adding TRVs so all bedrooms upstairs (at around £35 each) as they'd save me energy. I just pointed out that I shut off those rads when not using the rooms, so no real saving but I appreciate if you want to change valves, it makes sense to do it whilst the system is drained. What annoyed me a little more was how he was selling a Spirotech - the price was over £200 and he said that due to their solid brass structure, they're worth £100 alone in scrap prices. So how come you can buy them under £100 ?

If nothing else, it's useful to have a detailed cost breakdown, although some of the costs of the parts does raise an eyebrow or two...

[OCScene]

For what it's worth I'm a big fan of the ideal logic plus range. Solidly built, keenly priced and a 7 year warranty to boot. It's also one of the smallest boilers out there so doesn't take over an entire cupboard.

[Glassgoblin]

Bite the bullet. Get a couple of local indy's in + one of the biggies ( British Gas/EON) to give a price. See if you can get a Worcester Bosch Combi. Fantastic boiler. Company I work for ( Test Lab) tests boilers from many makers - these are our favourites.

Good luck and hope the cost is reasonable. You wont regret it.

[Jabozuma]

Bite the bullet. Get a couple of local indy's in + one of the biggies ( British Gas/EON) to give a price. See if you can get a Worcester Bosch Combi. Fantastic boiler. Company I work for ( Test Lab) tests boilers from many makers - these are our favourites.

Good luck and hope the cost is reasonable. You wont regret it.

How did Vaillant come out in your tests, condensing combo?

[Xavier]

Combi isn't an option really. Cost to change would most likely be higher than the straight forward replacement of a traditional conventional boiler. Most of the "specialists" I've spoken to say that the Worcester is not really better than any of the other big ones, and the increase in price is more to do with the name than a better design... The Baxi is actually more efficient :p

Thanks OCScene for the ideal logic suggestion - I hadn't noticed their special offer on 7yr warranty.

[Xavier]

Just an update.

New boiler installed by local independant guy. Cheap, quick and did a very tidy job.

He said a powerflush wasn't necessary (a relatively large expense), but recommended installing a filter which I would have gone for anyway.

Radiators downstairs are now hotter than ever, and the whole system hears up in seconds compared to minutes. A massive change.

At the moment, I'm cleaning out the filter every fortnight. First pass was really horrible. Second one not quite so much, so over time will get any remaining crud out of the system.

Really impressed so far, and nice to have a warm house with those outside temps!

[Jabozuma]

Well, another reason to upgrade from the old tech despite no deserate need to do so in some cases .

I bet you wish you've done it straigh away without fiddling with pumps, boards etc and additiona lexpense .