Car in for service with main dealer at the moment. When I signed-off the work order for action prior to the service I queried the cost of the engine oil this year, £48 (Last year it was £30). With that price difference it looked as if they were using different oil and I wondered if the VW/Skoda oil standards for the engine have changed. The girls on the desk couldn't really answer. So I started to make enquiries on the web which only confused me further.

My car 2003 1.4 100HP Petrol Fabia saloon (BBZ engine), 56,000 on the clock with a main dealer service history (Same dealer) going back to new in 2003. Annual mileage since 2012, 3,000. The 10 year handbook that came with the car says that either of VW oil standards 500.00, 502.00 (Which are termed high lubricity oils) or 501.01(Termed multigrade oils) applies to my car.

Research on the web seem to indicate that 502.00 has replaced the other two standards.

Skoda Customer service recommend using Quantum 5w-30 (Seems a bit thin to me) but were unable without referring to their technical services (Which I asked them to do) to tell me what VW standard now applied.

Yet a facsimilie of one of the VW approved oil lists (Dated 2010), encompassing VW oil standard 502, on the GTi.com website lists Quantum Platinum 5w-40 as approved

http://www.my-gti.com/2528/.

Again, Quantum platinum is availble retail for less than £30.

If I go on the Castrol site (Castrol blend Quantum I understand) and use the engine oil selection tool you end up with a choice of Edge (Fully synthetic) or Magnatec (Semi- synthetic). If you use the same tool on Opie oils it refers you to Edge and a collection of other fully synthetics only under the banner of the VW 504.00 standard. If you go to the Halfords site, the tool distingiushes between cars manufactured up to December 2002 and those made after (Although registered in March 2003, I think my car was made in 2002)

If I go to the listing the service records, its even more confusing:-

2007 . . . . 10w-40 (Petrol and Diesel. . . . . . .) . . . price £18.50

2008 . . . . 10w-40(Petrol and Diesel) . . . . . . . . . .price £19.40

2009 . . . . . .5w-40(PD) . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . price £40.60

2010 . . . . . 10w-40. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .price £28.00

2011 . . . . .5W-40(PD) . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . price £43.64

2012 . . . . . 10w-40 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .price £30.00

(oil supplied before 2007 was just listed as "Engine oil")

Obviously, its not clear from these descriptions what type of oil was used i.e. mineral, semi-synthetic or fully synthetic, but 10w-40 suggests to me semi-synthetic, whilst 5w-40 and the price suggests fully synthetic - I could be wrong.

The car started consuming oil from about 30,000 (Initially about a litre every 2,000 miles) and when I was at work and doing 6,000 miles (Mainly a 6 miles each way commute + luchtime and weekend use) and during 2011/ 2012 it was using a litre every 600-700 miles i.e. the level would fall from the top of the braided area on the dipstick to the bottom of the braided area. That level of consumption suggests engine wear and is near the VWs official wear limit of the engine.

Being retired now, i've only done 3,000 miles (Mainly once a week use of 20 miles per occasion) over the past year and only topped it up once with 1/2 a litre.

My questions are multiple -

What engine oil is the best to use in this engine now given its history, current usuage and the need to keep it going for the next 7 years (Without an engine re-build) - i.e. over the next 21,000 miles (The chassis/bodywork, transmissions seems OK).

Why would the dealers appear to vary the engine oil used in the service from one service to another ? Would that have any ill-effects - I thinking of damage to seals, sensors, and the possibility of higher detergent fully synthetics (If used) dislodging debris and blocking oil ways.

And , of course, the important thing I want to know, if I'm topping it up 2 - 3 times a year what oil do I use ?

The current level of official advice couldn't be better if it had originated in Romania, was being overseen by the Ministry Of Fisheries and Food and was classified Top Secret, UK Eyes Only and was being applied by an infinite number of monkeys using an infinite number of typewriters.

Cheers

Nick

Edited 14 February, 201313 yr by Clunkclick

Hi Nick,

Unable to give you an answer I'm afraid because like you I too am completely mystified at the present oil situation.

Not so long ago I understood it all but now I'm just totally confused (which doesn't take much) :think:

Respect to your investigations though

Regards

Terry Smith

Was able to have the briefest of chats with one of the mechanics (The one who serviced the car I'm told) - first one I have spoken to in 10 years. I explained that I was having to top-up the engine oil between services (Sometimes up to 2 litres per 5000 miles) and therefore would appreciate confirmation of what oil had been put in on this service, because the total oil capacity of the engine is only 3.2 litres and the official handbook advises that different oil can be used for top-up as long as the amount is limited. I was asked what had been listed previously on the service invoice, and replied that, with a couple of exceptions, 10w-40 had been listed. So that's the answer that came back - not encouraging.

So looks as if previoius entries for 5W-40 may have been a "Clerical (And charging) error".

I then went on to ask him what he thought was causing the oil loss I asked him if he thought that cylinder bore wear (Due to the other well known Fab Mk 1 problem leaky injectors after engine shutdown) was the problem, he said he had observed some smoke on start-up which went away with the engine warming and that this was probably valve stem wear.

He was a bit cagey about confirming the VW oil standard that applied !

I tried to get him to venture an opinion as to whether and when the valve problem should be addressed. But, not unsurprisingly, he was not really forthcoming.

I also asked why, with this level of oil loss, the catalytic converters hadn't packed-up. No firm answer on that.

I have trouble understanding how it gets through the emission test each year. Particularly the HC component All I can think is that VOSA advise that vehicles should be presented for the MOT test partly warmed-up (The 2012 Regs say equivalent to the vehicle having been driven for 5 miles), so all I can assume is that the majority of the oil loss my vehicle is experiencing occurs from cold and that by the 5 mile stage the gaps have closed and the oil loss dramatically reduces.

I have records for the three of the last four years when the a sheet stating the emission levels obtained from the MOT haver been attached to the Service Invoice I received and they show the following;-

Fast Idle (Test sheet says supposed to be conducted @ 2500-3000 RPM)

CO Max (% vol) [ MOT Limit 0.2 ] my car readings were 0.003 (2010), 0.081 (2012), 0.169 (2013)

HC Max (ppm vol) [MOT Limit 200] my car readings were 0(2010), 85 (2012), 26(2013).

Lambda [MOT range 0.97-1.03] my car readings were 1.008 (2010), 0.993 (2012), 0.995 (2013)

Natural Idle (Test sheet says this is supposede to be conducted @450-1500 RPM)

CO Max (% vol) [MOT Limit 0.3] my car readings were 0.287(2010) 0.064 (2012), 0.155 (2013)

Sheet also states that the actual RPM that the engine achieved on both tests was not measured.

I can't find my 2011 MOT docs - at the moment.

Looking at the 2012 VOSA Exhaust Emission regs (17th edition) Annex it states that the engine RPM for the MOT test for the engine in my car (1.4 16v DOHC BBZ petrol) should be 2400-2600 RPM for the fast idle and 580-780 for the natural idle.

Who knows what's occuring.

I suppose the only remedy for leaky valve stems is not to use the car for lots of short journeys and, at the moment I'm not.

My only other concern is that worn valve stems/guides may lead to a valve sticking (On return) and impacting the rising piston or a valve head breaking off in the fashion of the old VW air-cooled beetle engines. Apparently, when the valve guides wear, this leads to consequential wear in the valve seats (They go eliptical) and this leads to a loss of compression and presumably power loss - haven't seen that yet on the straight and level, but hill climbing power on the very steepest sections seems to be down.

Wonder oif its worth popping it down to a tuners and sticking it on a dyno just to get some more comprehensive values -£50-60 spent now may avoid £1200 engine rebuild if valve sticks leave only a simple head re-conditioning/refurbishment at £500 to be done.

Any views ?

Interesting with the MOT emissions test that ambient air temperature, air pressure or dissolved oxygen are not stated (Or used for weighting claculations ? ) in the report. So you could pass on a warm day and fail on a cold one, pass in Devon, fail in London etc etc.

Nick

Edited 15 February, 201313 yr by Clunkclick

I explained that I was having to top-up the engine oil between services (Sometimes up to 2 litres per 5000 miles)

Hmmmm, maybe you need to get the old girl looked at properly Nick. 2 litres every 5k? Hardly worth having an oil change done at service time.

Its worse than that. I recall going on holidays to France in 2010 and 2011. I took oil with me. After doing 600-700 on the outbound leg the level on the dipstick had fallen from the top of the braided area to the bottom marker indicating 1 liter loss. The journey had mostly been done on British motorways and French expressways @ 70 MPH with no more than 5 stops, where the engine was turned-off, on the way (At least 3 of those stops involved warm restarts i.e. stop overs no longer than 20 minutes). The same applied to the return journey. It required a liter top-up when I got home. You'd think there would be smoke trailling out the back as you were going along - but there's nothing when you are moving and only a little smoke when you start-up from cold, which soon disappears.

One year, I had to park, fully-chocked, on one of the steep up ramps of the ferry for the crossing and was fully expecting that on return to the car I would find that several years collection of oil had drained from the catalytic converters through the exhaust pipe onto the deck - but there was nothing.

I think the dealer philosphy is wait 'til it fails, the problem has then disclosed itself and effectively self-diagnosed so no risk taking it all to bits and reapiring the wrong part. Of course the customer then has a much bigger bill.

But when the local main dealer isn't that forthcoming, where do you go to ?

Ideally, I'd like to be at least armed with a partially confimed hypothesis about the cause of the problem before approaching the money launderers (sorry, professionals).

I just wonder if there is any easy way I can tell what's happening. Is it worth getting a stethoscope and listening to the DOHC/Valve area when the engine's running ?

Postscript

WTH, £6.50 ordered one.

The other way for testing valves is using a vacuum guage attached to the manifold. Doing this on the carburetted Golf that I had previously was an easy direct connection to the distributor take-off on the carburettor body (South of the throttle butterfly) - where do you hook it up on the Fab ?

Nick

Edited 15 February, 201313 yr by Clunkclick

I've got the earlier AUB engine.

Always used Mobil 1 0w40 spec oil..............it meets/exceeds VW specs......................and I'm not into the "long service interval" rip off........................and I only do about 5,000miles/year...........

....I do get a slight weeping around the engine/gearbox seal I think.....hard to trace but the underside of the engine near the gearbox and the gearbox in places has always had a slight oily film.................And I check the gearbox oil level.and ok..and that has been changed for millers Motorsport oil 75w90???.........

Got a call back today from Skoda Customer Services in response to the telephone enquiry I made last Wednesday. Not impressed by the advice or attitude at all.

Early this afternoon, I was advised by someone in Customer Services that I should now be using 5W-40 fully synthetic and that the VW oil standard 504.00 now applies to my car, supplanting VW 502.00.

On the back of this I asked some supplementaries.

Firstly, is oil consumption of 1 litre per 600 miles acceptable in this car ?

Is it correct for the dealer to be changing oil types every other year, as appears to have a happened from my service record.

Given the rate of oil consumption, the recent advice of the mechanic regarding the inlet and exhaust valves and my concerns about the consequences of valve failure whilst the vehicle was in motion, should the car be referred to the main dealer for inspection ?

She said she would take the issue back to the dealer, at which point I insisted that the matter be put to Skoda Uk's own technical department rather than "Ping-pong" it with the dealer as she wanted to do.

Shortly afterwards I went onto the internet and checked out what I'd been told. It was wrong.

VW oil standard 504.00 replaces VW 503.00 and VW503.01, NOT VW 502 and, furthermore VW 504.00 only supplants those standards if the car is compliant with Euro Emission IV standard which came into force in January 2005 - my car was built in 2002. So, wrong on both counts.

http://www.oilspecif.../volkswagen.php

http://en.wikipedia....ssion_standards

Before, I'd had time to check what brands of 5w-40 oil supported which particular VW oil standards, I got another call from a bloke in Customer Services, who made out he was a supervisor and then promptly advised me that the first advice Skoda Customer Services had given regarding oil and standards was wrong and that VW 502 applied to my car and that the car should be using 10W-40 semi synthetic.

He said that oil consumption of the level I had described was normal for this car/engine and for most modern car types. I disputed that- the car hadn't lost any oil between serrvices up to 30,000 miles. And further said that my concerns about a catastrophic failure of the valve gear and the consequential possibility personal injury and costly repairs arising from an accident caused by this were unwarranted.

He refused to pass the matter on to the technical department of Skoda UK on policy grounds ("Skoda UK technical services are not foward facing to the customer") and claimed that he was unable to instruct the dealer what oil to use, as dealerships were franchises or intervene to require any other action on the car i.e. inspection of the engine for excess wear and oil leakage.

So, it would appear Skoda are happy for the customers to associate the badge on cars in dealers showrooms with Skoda UK for sales purposes, but after that, they couldn't give a four-X.

One interesting thing he did say, was that I could top-up the engine oil between services with up to 1/2 a liter of any other engine oil, other than the oil used at service. I pointed out this advice was no use to me if I am using 2 litres between services.

He was similarly unimpressed that oil loss on this scale might represent a serious environmental issue across the type (Perhaps above and outwith his area of concern), given the presence small quantities of heavy metals in oils and that this seemed, for some reason, to be escaping detection in the MOT test.

He did point out that this was the sort of behaviour you could expect from modern technological engines. I said the technology must have gone backward, because my 1981 Golf, which bit the dust in 1997, having been serviced by me for 14 years (After the warranty ran out) never lost an ounce of oil between services.

Skoda's attitude to oil standards, oil loss and enforcement of standards with dealers, seems at odds with VW and their issue of Oil standards. Is this another instance where big corporates go through the motions of complying with EU regs whilst simulatneously "Cocking a blind'un", a bit like the Food Standards debacle ?

In the end, Skoda CS agreed to confirm in an e-mail the most recent advice, and I informed them I will be writing to VWs CEO in Wolfsburg (Copied to Skoda CEO) and the environment and car ministries in the EU and UK.

So it seems that Skoda UKs best advice runs contrary to common sense, any concept of fairness or customer service and, more importantly, against the wisdom of average experienced Briskoda member.

Nick

Edited 18 February, 201313 yr by Clunkclick

Aside

I've just checked the Exhaust Emission Category for my car (By car/emgine type, Fabia saloon 1.4 100BHP, manual, first registered March 03) on the car fuel data direct gov website and it says the Fabia is in category H 170 g/km, (£195 pa):-

http://carfueldata.d...aspx?vid=157668:-

I always thought it was in category G, 161 g/Km. The recently issued revised format V5 (3/11)says it is category G. This year's renewal slip came in as category G (£170 pa).

Why the difference ?

Nick

Edited 18 February, 201313 yr by Clunkclick

You're better off writing to which magazine or similar. Martin Winterkorn probably won't even get to see your letter, likewise skuk boss. Car companies only react to large scale consumer groups.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

That sounds very much like a version of the Chessington and Milton Keynes Corporate line.

The middle ranking corporates would have you believe that big organisations only respond to the political force of widescale consumer dissent in the market. Not necessarily so.

Speaking from experience of myself and near relatives with the "Writing to Wolfsburg" routine, I have to disagree slightly there.

I recently wrote a letter of complaint to CEO of John Lewis (2012) and he detailed a personal assistant to deal with the issue of a faulty dishwasher which the repairers had been unable to resolve over a period of 2 years - result, was brand-new dishwasher and £20 cash back (As the new model was £20 cheaper than the old one) - touch wood this has worked faultlessly for the last 18 months. Even more recently, I wrote to the CEO of BT after being messed around by the Infinity installers, result Infinity installed within 2 weeks and £50 back of my bill for It does work.

Most importantly, WTW (Writing to Wolfsburg), is the first step in ensuring that the corporates all the way down to the dealer are fully aware of what is occuring, on whatever scale, and therefore can't at a later stage claim lack of knowledge - that's what they all try and do, particularly nowadays - from Leveson to LIBOR to Mid-staffs, And, if it is a new problem, they have to deal with it reasonably as they can't be sure that your's the only case waiting to bite them. Further, its very sound to do this if you anticipate follow-up legal action.

You don't need much experience of these things to know the way the foreign offices of multi-national's work. Its all about promoting and maintaining the easy life. Money for old rope.Sit on your backside, doing sod-all raking in the dosh. Fib, obsfurcate and delay like hell to any complainant in the hope they will give-up and go away and make sure that nobody upsets the home company. Judging from my recent experience with Skoda Uk and past experience with VAG UK, they are no exceptions to the rule. They don't act unless they get an almighty kick-up the arse.

I have to say that having been a member of Briskoda since 2003, I've read plenty of posts regarding oil loss in the 1.4 AUB and BBZ 16 valve engines. And even if only a small number of those previous cases have gone official with Skoda/VAG, it will be grist to my mill. I recall that it was reported on by Honest John. As I write this post, I've just done a Google search against the criteria "Oil loss Skoda Fabia 1.4" and the top two results refer exactly to this problem (Briskoda and Honest John):-

http://www.google.co...iw=1088&bih=463

I've been particularly patient, but all I've got is prevarication from the dealer.

The oil loss problem started at a low level of loss (1/2 litre every 2000 miles) with my car @ 30,000 miles (2006) and has now progressed to serious level of 2 litres every 1200 miles now. I initially drew it the dealers attention when it first occurred and requested a compression test. I was initially told that one had been done and that there was no problem and, later, another problem with the engine quitting in mid-drive, which I suspected was a sticking valve, resulted in the EGR valve and associated piping being cleaned-out. But the need to top-up oil between services continued to increase to the point where it is now. Despite the thing passing the exhaust emission tests for the last 7 years, I can't think that this car is, in the wider sense, roadworthy, if its loosing that amount of oil and, if this level of oil loss is normal for cars of this type, why did it not lose any oil between services for the first 30,000 miles (2003-2006) ?

At the moment I am still waiting for the letter promised by Skoda UK Customer services. God knows how long that is going to take, bearing in mind in took them a week to return my telephone call. Give them 10 working days (That should allow for a very slow spell checker and legal department to do there stuff) and then the letters start flying Euro and UK side.

Nick

Edited 21 February, 201313 yr by Clunkclick

And none of that is surprising, it's a business to make money after all, not to make you feel good about your car (though that might sometimes be part of the business model, it's not THE reason).

John Lewis is a little different from VAG, but I agree with the point that at least writing the letter gives you a legal position (which I am sure they won't ignore, just that the head of the corp probably won't read it personally, and you'll get a standard reply). Ultimately though, your contract is with the dealer you bought the car from, not SKUK, nor VAG.

Now I was under the impression the BBZ engine was only introduced in 2004. the fact your car is a 2003/2002 with this engines is confusing.

I thought that the 5W30 EDGE oil from castrol was actually equiv to 5W40. Thats the grade of oil that was recommended to me when i had my 16V Fabia (AUB)

When I last had it in for service, my mechanic told me it needs 5W30, so I'm sticking with Castrol Edge. Runs well on it, fuel economy not too bad (V Power) and it pulls really well too.

That sounds very much like a version of the Chessington and Milton Keynes Corporate line.

The middle ranking corporates would have you believe that big organisations only respond to the political force of widescale consumer dissent in the market. Not necessarily so.

Speaking from experience of myself and near relatives with the "Writing to Wolfsburg" routine, I have to disagree slightly there.

I recently wrote a letter of complaint to CEO of John Lewis (2012) and he detailed a personal assistant to deal with the issue of a faulty dishwasher which the repairers had been unable to resolve over a period of 2 years - result, was brand-new dishwasher and £20 cash back (As the new model was £20 cheaper than the old one) - touch wood this has worked faultlessly for the last 18 months. Even more recently, I wrote to the CEO of BT after being messed around by the Infinity installers, result Infinity installed within 2 weeks and £50 back of my bill for It does work.

Nick

Different companies, but I've had similar levels of success by writign directly to CEOs, specifically marking the letter "private and confidential, addressee only", and being polite and matter of fact about what your problem is and what you would like them to do.