Skoda superb 2.5 tdi giving me a lot of trouble!

[vk10]

When I go into basic settings and to 004. Btdc is 3.6 btdc and then changes to 14.4

Timing is reading on graph as 3.8 out of spec advanced

But the moment I get it within spec I get misfire all the way from 1000 to 2000 rev

[dieselV6]

Try setting it to 1.2atdc then read out the "early" value, if it is less than 13degbtdc the pump may be knackered after all. If it is 14-15degbtdc, I would still look for trouble at the other belt, ~1 tooth error. At higher revs, injection timing gets advanced more.

The 2nd garage had done this, put it in service position and checked the timing through.

2nd garage also told you pump timing was right.... when you saw yourself it was not.

[vk10]

Your right I think its best to get it within spec. Funny enough though when it was too advanced I had no shudder while driving between 1000 to 2000 rev. And now when I'm closer to being within spec u have shuddering when I'm between 1000 to 2000.

[vk10]

Plus its a task to start the car in the morning. Smokes and smells of diesel and not to mention a pound banging tractor sound

[dieselV6]

There are other possible reasons for shudder in the 1k-2k rev range, injected quantity of fuel may not be correct. Have injectors been checked at all (they were mentioned in the thread)?

I'd set the timing to 1.2ATDC late, read out early value and make sure it is above 14degBTDC. If it is not, different pump required.

If it is above 14deg, check all injectors, then if problem still not found remove camshaft covers and inspect the valve train, then re-time the engine with camshaft covers off.

Edited 26 March, 2013 by dieselV6

[vk10]

Injectors were checked on the diagnostic on Bosch kts. All were well running well within limit unless one is leaking and the diagnostic is not picking it up.

I think I'm bring the timing to 1.2 atdc on the graph and check if the early timing I. Though in very sure that everytime the graph told me to wait until injector is retarded,it read 14.4

And the went to 3.8 timing out of spec (advanced)

[dieselV6]

You do not need the graph, best to just look at raw numbers in Group 4 Basic Settings, they just lis timing with "early" and "late" next to it (don't give into the urge of pressing the "TDI timing checker" button )

Edited 26 March, 2013 by dieselV6

[vk10]

Okie then Il try just with the group 004 setting and report back this evening. In the meantime I'm going to start looking for these pumps at breakers as I don't see myself being able to afford to spend 1k on a new one. Fingers crossed its not the pump

[vk10]

hello again, been finishing work late for the last 2 days so haven't got round to getting the timing back within spec. I just had a question, I was looking for this injection pump. Now the part number on mine is 059130106 K, there are few with the same numbers but the last letter which in my case is K, changes to B, A, J etc.

would that make any difference?

thanks

[dieselV6]

I guess ECU is programmed for a specific one, e.g. they could have a different output/pressure. "K" part is still listed as an official replacement, and my guess is earlier letters might be for 150bhp engines.

Edited 27 March, 2013 by dieselV6

[vk10]

That's what I was wondering, but what if I was to swap the ecu over, do you reckon that it would work?. I have found quite a few with various letters off passats, a6 Quattro tdi's , 2.5 tdi a4's etc.

Though there is only one breaker who had the exact numbers as the ones on mine but then I haven't heard of that company nor do they have a website. They are based in Wigan called World spares. Heard of them?

[CRC]

VK10 - Have sent you a PM.

[vk10]

Just a quick update. Timing is within spec

On group 004 it reads early 1.8 and actual start at 14.4 btdc

Does that mean the pump has had it?

[dieselV6]

basic settings Group 004 should say "early", then value of 14.4deg BTDC, then after ~10s the display should switch to "late" and 1.8degATDC if I understand you.

If you get display exactly as I described, the pump should be OK, at least when it comes to timing range, as it is more than 15deg (14.4+1.8 = 16.2deg range). So electrical fault is unlikely, though you still can have injector or fuel quantity issue (or the other timing belt is mis-timed).

[vk10]

Hi again; haven't managed to sort out the car yet. Was,away with work. I just wanted to find out that if I was to get a recon pump ora pump from the breakers would,I be able to code it using vagcom? Or is there any other specific way

Thanks!

[vk10]

Good morning, just a quick update to say that I took the shot and bought a recon unit from pb Asher, and happy to say that the car is now running fine! Would like to thank all of you for your continuous patience and support specially diesel v6 and crc.

I will be adjusting the pump timing this weekend. Its at -2.4 now but still within spec

[dieselV6]

You're welcome

Glad to hear it's sorted out now, for timing I sincerely recommend 0.6ATDC "late" value, as I noticed that it does drift towards delayed values by about 0.1deg per year, probably due to belt stretching with wear/age. Mine is currently at 0.8-1.0 and was set in late 2010.

[CRC]

That's really good to hear .... so it was the pump that was at fault after all?

Did the garage that fitted it in the first place have anything to say about the fact that their rebuilt pump was at fault?

Could you tell us how much did PB Asher want for the recon unit? Tried to search for a website, but find that it doesn't appear to be there anymore.

Just planning for the "possible" future ......

[vk10]

Will be adjusting it this evening as i have noticed that early morning start needs a longer crank.

2ndly by the looks of it car will need to go into service position as the water pump is leaking. Funny that the garages who checked this earlier could not see it.

Crc, the garages have nothing to say except they have never come across such a thing before. They claim to have changed a lit of bits of the pump including the timing valve the seals etc. But from what i heard from pb asher is that you simply cant just rebuild this punp. It needs to go on a bench where it goes through series of calibrations. The pump costed 688.80 all inc, the send it out next day delivery and you need to send the old one back.

I sincerely hope you don't need to plan for this in future, its an expense one can do without. I like the car its great but frankly i wouldn't buy another 2.5tdi again!

Just out of curiosity can you all tell me what mpg should i expect? And would getting the timing to 0.6 atdc have an good effect on early morning startup and mpg?

[CRC]

I don't know how much the first garage charged you, but in one of your earlier posts you said

So I bought it and sent it off to my usual garage who checked the pump in the tank replaced the fuel filter and when they did not succeed they took the injection pump off to get it tested. After getting it back they put it all together again and the car started with a lot of effort, (mind you this was the first time I had seen it running). All this time I had no errors on the vagcom and no lights flashing. The car just ran like a bag of nails shuddered and shook and couldn't hold speed below 2000 revs, though once it crossed that it pulled really well. The garage thought the timing was out so they checked that and couldn't find anything else wrong with it and gave up.

So they knew there was something wrong back then, and as a new (different) pump has solved the problem, it's obvious that they didn't fix the original one properly, so strictly speaking, they're out of order there.

About £700 seems to be the going rate for a recon pump and I notice that if you type in VP44 on E-Bay, there's an Austrian company who specialise in these things, and googling their name shows a few videos on You Tube, most of which show the test gear that they have invested in to set up and test these things properly, so there's more to it than just changing a few seals.

I reckon that, given the reliability of most everything else on the V6, I can live with that possible cost penalty hanging over me for a few years. Seems like most all diesels these days have a potential high cost failure waiting to happen. DPFs aren't cheap, injectors aren't cheap. A mate of mine was hit with a £600 charge a couple of years ago for a fuel pump on his 1.9 TDI Passat, and another shelled out £1400 for a (Lucas) fuel pump on his old Merc,

And I've just heard that another mate has "sold as a non runner" his 06 Superb .... because the dreaded oil pump failed on his 2.0 TDI. I did warn him, but he wouldn't listen!!!

Our other car is a Honda Jazz .... their forums struggle to find things to talk about

Oh, and my mpg always seems to average 47 mpg over a few thousand miles, but it is a manual and I don't do much town work - mainly A roads.

Edited 11 April, 2013 by CRC

[rotodiesel]

Conclusion: the 1.9PD is the only Superb worth having.

I've seen a lot of broken VP44s. The criminal design features are the use of fragile electronics and ribbon cable interconnects inside an engine mounted fuel pump being shaken to bits, thermally cycled and running in diesel. This is coupled with an antiquated rotary pump design which gives low pressure (by PD and CR standards) injection, compromising engine output, smoke and emissions. The ultimate insult is that the injection timing is derived from the pump via two toothed belts with considerable torsional oscillation. Obtaining a clean governor runout curve on an engine mounted VP44 is not readily possible.

By contrast, the PD obtains its timing from a tone wheel on the crank, mounted just inboard of the flywheel where torsionals are at an absolute minimum. Clean governing is easily achieved and injection timing is set in the software engine map and will not shift - unless you bend the crank. There are no electronics at all on the engine other than transducers, which all engines need. It's a brilliant system, defeated only by cost (Bosch) and its inability to provide post injection fuel for DPF regeneration, which only the CR can do. As DPFs and the fuel needed to clean out the soot are a pure waste of money, these later engines are not on my list.

The 1.9PD comes very close to the performance of the 2.5 (especially the auto) with really worthwhile savings on tax (due to the agricultural fuelling system of the 2.5) and fuel economy. As the Superb as a model was a lemon, you might just as well have the best version of it and reject the others.

I wish you the very best of luck in repairing your 2.5. The above just represents my technical view as to the differences between the two engines in real life. Googling "VP44 failure" does not make for happy reading. All engines which use this pump have given trouble, regardless of the maker.

rotodiesel.

[kevberlin]

Brilliant thread. Big thumbs up to people on here helping a fellow Skoda owner.

[dieselV6]

Somehow I cannot agree with your conclusion, Rotodiesel, I will still cherish my "extremely prone to breaking" (not!) V6.

PD unit injectors are also costly to replace.

I put 3000+ broken German 1.9PD engines in ONE winter (due to water in fuel) against this single BDG VP44 failure.

Re VP44 pump failures, we have been discussing it before, problems are mostly with earlier pumps, and actually the vk10's pump is the first failed one on a BDG engine that I heard of. Combined with possible bodged timing belt job that led to the problems described in this thread, it is far from conclusive that the pump itself caused the problems, could've been messed up instead.

Water pump should have been checked during the belt job, it will effectively be another belt job to replace it as all belts need to come off. I just checked play in the bearings on mine, it was same as on a brand new unit I bought for the DIY TB job, and decided to keep the original pump on the car. 42k miles later, all is well. But I'd have replaced it if there had been any play in the pump bearings, and certainly will do in 2-3 years time during next TB job (at 150k miles).

Re fuel consumption, my Superb uses 7.5l/100km, or 38mpg in mixed driving in the UK, it is not much given a 2012 1.6CR105 Roomster (that weighs 1/3rd less) uses 6.9l/100km, or 41mpg in similar driving (if you can call this gutless 1.6CR similar). To make a fair comparison to an older engine, a 1.9TDI110 Octavia with a 6-speed ERF gearbox used 6l/100km or 47mpg.

Frankly, I have yet to see a 4-cyl diesel unit that has the refinement and effortless low rpm operation of the 6-cyl., and newer diesels use more fuel in real life driving (I have first hand experience of this).

[rotodiesel]

Each to his own, but in my engineering book, you don't stick your head in the fire. The VP44's integral electronics do just this, in my view.

PD injectors are indeed expensive - so expensive from Bosch, that VAG went to Siemens for the later units in the 2.0PD 16V, with disastrous results involving a recall. The failure rate of the Bosch electromagnetic injectors in the 1.9PD is incredibly low, given good fuel system maintenance. I have seen 1.9 engines with 300k+ miles which still meet the specification for IQ balance.

The same cannot be said of the VP44, as used by a variety of engine makers.

You buy a diesel for cheap transport. I know which one is the more likely to meet this objective.

rotodiesel.

[dieselV6]

I buy diesels because:

1. They offer better torque curve for effortless motorway cruising, turbocharged petrols can match this but do not last as long.

2. Diesels have more range, in fact in Skoda range only diesels have sufficient range for my trips.

3. Fuel abroad is 20% less expensive than petrol - that's the only economy point on my list, though an important one, and it does not depend on fuel consumption, just fuel type. I'd gladly buy Superb V8 TDI if they made one

4. Diesel cars do not catch fire as easily as petrol ones - it already saved my car (Octy 1) once after bodged garage job and loose injector union nut spraying diesel over entire engine bay.

5. I do not need to replace spark plugs, glow plugs last for at least 7-8 years in my use, so other than TB job, maintenance is fairly simple and not prone to disasters.