Skoda Felicia 1.3 from 1999 do not start

[fusan]

Thanks for the schematic.

 

Here is a summary of what has been done :

1. During the reparation the car got power (start cables) from another virchle

2. Read fault codes during the whole process and it allway returns the same two faults codes: 

   Engine : 17978 - Engine Start Blocked by Immobilizer

   Immo   : 01177 - Engine Control Unit 65-10 - Unauthorized - Intermittent

3. The fuel pump was tested at the beginning by connect the fuel hose (at the injection system) to a bottle and

   Turn the key to the first position - The fuel ran for a couple of seconds and turned off

   Turned key to the second position  - The fuel pump started again for a couple of seconds

4. The spare key doesn't work iether.

5. The immobilizer coil DC resistance (between T3.1 and T3.2 in the diagram from adurer) has been measured and it was 16.3 Ohm!

6. Read Measureing Blocks from immobilizer, which returned :

   Authorised Start  : 1

   ECU Answers       : 1

   Key Condition OK  : 1

   No of Matched Keys: N/A

   Check image at http://imgur.com/0i6FQYo

7. Conector checked and cleaned using WD40 :

   Both large connectors.

   3 pole connector on the F bracked behind the charcoal canister.

   6 pole connector on the F bracket behind the charcoal canister.

   6 pole connector on the immo (T6b).

   3 pole connector on the immo (T3).

8. immo connector wires:

   Pin T6B.1 : 12V was present when the ignition key was turned. This must mean the the fuse S20 is intact.

   pin T6B.2 : The 'W' wire connection to ECU (pin 19) has been checked. The impeedance was very close to 0 Ohm.

   pin T6B.3 : The 'K' wire must be working since the OBD plug can connect to PC and immo codes can be read, right?

   pin T6B.4 : The GND is checked and is fastend to the stearing coloumn.

   pin TB6.5 : Not connected on the plug.

   pin T6B.6 : same as pin 4

   I measured approx 12V between pin 1 and 4 on the T6B connector when ignition was on.

 

So, If the 'W' wire is faulty, will the ECU reply with "17978 - Engine Start Blocked by Immobilizer"?

Do the immo send "I'm Alive" events to the ECU every X ms OR do the ECU poll the immo to know the immo is present?

 

I appriciate you help guys.

[TeflonTom]

Hang on. A memory stirs.. You haven't unplugged any of the connectors from the immo unit or ecu whiles the igniton has been switched on have you? Or tried plugging in a different ecu?

[fusan]

Hang on. A memory stirs.. You haven't unplugged any of the connectors from the immo unit or ecu whiles the igniton has been switched on have you? Or tried plugging in a different ecu?

 

Hmm I dont think I have done that. Was that an idea for something I should to try or?

[TeflonTom]

No don't unplug things with the igniton on.

right ok try this, clear the fault codes from the ecu, then go into the immo unit, adaption (10), channel 0, then read and write, then try stating the engine.

[adurer]

I believeTeflonTom is thinking (for good reason) that the immobilizer and the ECU are no longer paired. Each time the car is started successfully, a random code is generated and stored both into ECU and into immobilizer flash memory. Those code are interogated by ECU at next engine start and if for some reason the codes don't match then ECU thinks somebody has been tampering with the immobilizer and says 'no start'.

 

So to rule out that issue, do this in turn:

- read error codes

- erase error codes

- pair (adapt) keys to immo

- pair (adapt) immo to ECU

- read error codes

 

If no errors, try starting the car.

[TeflonTom]

Yes that's what I was thinking, although there's no need to pair the keys in this case, and he would need the skc to do this too which is not easy to obtain.

intermittent faults will automatically clear after 50 starts of the engine if the fault hasn't recurred., the thing to note here from his immo box scan it says start is authorised which proves the keys are matched to the immo unit, but the engine ecu is not matched to the immo unit hence the 'start blocked by immo' code popping up.

[fusan]

Could this be true?

 

I tried the method that you (Teflon Tom) suggested first, since I dont have the SKC and cant make VAG Tacho work at the moment.

-> Enter Immo in VCDS

-> Adaption

-> Read Ch 0

-> Write Ch 0.

-> Cleared the errorcodes from the Engine and Immo and I turned the ignition off and on again, just to make sure and checke again.

No Errorcodes appeared anywere! Unfoutunetly I didnt have enough power on the battery get it started, but my brother got here with some

cables and it started first time!

 

The last few weeks has been torture for me, Without a car its pretty much impossible to move arround. Some pleople here on this board really made an effort to help. I have no idea how to thank you guys, so Thank you Teflon Tom and Thank you adurer, for stickin in and believing that this could be done. That gave me hope and was much appreciated during this stressed proces.

 

Now Im just wondering how the Immobilizer can loose the sync to the ECU.

[adurer]

Now Im just wondering how the Immobilizer can loose the sync to the ECU.

The only thing I can think of is a car electrical issue. A transient overvoltage could scramble the content of the Flash memory. Likewise, a transient power interruption to immo could affect it. It is important you were persistent and cleaned every connector related, that helps in most cases. If the voltage regulator on the alternator is old, I would replace it with a new one, just as a precaution.

[fusan]

The only thing I can think of is a car electrical issue. A transient overvoltage could scramble the content of the Flash memory. Likewise, a transient power interruption to immo could affect it. It is important you were persistent and cleaned every connector related, that helps in most cases. If the voltage regulator on the alternator is old, I would replace it with a new one, just as a precaution.

 

Im fearing that what you say is correct. Even more, that it is periodic issue in the cable system when the weather gets humid and cold.

Ill be sure to check the voltage regulator and propobly replace it, cus It is old.

Thanks again adurer. Really happy that the car is running now.

[adurer]

If you have some spare time, have a look at relay/fuse panel too. Even better, disconnect the negative battery cable and take the panel out for a closer inspection. WD40 does wonders on relay, fuse and connector contacts. We have 15 year old cars after all and it is reasonable to asume some corrosion occured.

[fusan]

If you have some spare time, have a look at relay/fuse panel too. Even better, disconnect the negative battery cable and take the panel out for a closer inspection. WD40 does wonders on relay, fuse and connector contacts. We have 15 year old cars after all and it is reasonable to asume some corrosion occured.

 

Thanks again adurer!

Ill try to clean up the fusebox with som WD40. Time will tell if this error occurs again..

[fusan]

Hi again

So the old problem is back.

It has occurred once before and I fixed it with the method mentioned earlier in the thread.

This time though that method didn't work. When I read and write ch 0 in immobilizer -》adept, turn of the ignition and turn it back on the error from before shows up again.

This time though the immobilizer does not show any errors while the engine stille had the same errorcode.

Any advice guys?

[RicardoM]

Think what changed from the last successful adaptation. Maybe a weaker battery? Wiring corrosion progressed? Did you find proof of intermittent problem?

[fusan]

Think what changed from the last successful adaptation. Maybe a weaker battery? Wiring corrosion progressed? Did you find proof of intermittent problem?

As far as I can recall, nothing really changed. It has only been 1 month since the issue last occured.

The only thing that is different this time is that the Immobilizer doesent show any error, even though the ECU show the error that it is blocked by the immoblizer.

What I wonder is why would the engine be blocked by the immobilizer if theres no errors from the immobilizer itself.

[fusan]

Adurer, TeflonTom? any of you guys have some ideas?

So what are my options now? Would a new ECU with a matching Immobilizer and key be the way to go from here?

[RicardoM]

Would a new ECU with a matching Immobilizer and key be the way to go from here?

The short answer is maybe.

 

I wouldn't take any chance to buy new or SH parts until I didn't find the evidence of what caused the malfunction. I have read the whole topic and my conclusion is as follows:

 

Pairing or adapting the ECU with/to the immobilizer consists (in layman terms) in writing to the right memory location (EEPROM) of one or both devices the proper code required by the firmware to give green light for starting the car. If you didn't find clear evidence of bad wiring or corrosion in connectors, my guess is either the EEPROM itself has a fault (locations unwritable, location values flopping, etc.) or the voltage/current needed to erase/write the EEPROM (usually 12V) are too low. That is why I mentioned earlier a weaker battery.

 

If the electric system of the car is not properly protected against parasitic electrical spikes generated by the alternator or ignition system, even installing new from the shelf ECU or immobilizer could render them faulty after a while. That is why I insist in finding the cause before buying blindly new or SH parts. Diagnose first, buy later.

[fusan]

The short answer is maybe.

 

I wouldn't take any chance to buy new or SH parts until I didn't find the evidence of what caused the malfunction. I have read the whole topic and my conclusion is as follows:

 

Pairing or adapting the ECU with/to the immobilizer consists (in layman terms) in writing to the right memory location (EEPROM) of one or both devices the proper code required by the firmware to give green light for starting the car. If you didn't find clear evidence of bad wiring or corrosion in connectors, my guess is either the EEPROM itself has a fault (locations unwritable, location values flopping, etc.) or the voltage/current needed to erase/write the EEPROM (usually 12V) are too low. That is why I mentioned earlier a weaker battery.

 

If the electric system of the car is not properly protected against parasitic electrical spikes generated by the alternator or ignition system, even installing new from the shelf ECU or immobilizer could render them faulty after a while. That is why I insist in finding the cause before buying blindly new or SH parts. Diagnose first, buy later.

Thanks for taking the time for reading the thread.

The easy part would be to wire another another car to the Felicia and test if I can write to the ECU through VAG-COM.

If the issue is caused by the Alternator or ignition system, is will be harder to detect. Can I measure this in some way? If so I have no clue what wires to measure on and

what the probper current should should be.

Sorry for my ignorance, but Im not a mechanic or very technically gifted, for that matter

[RicardoM]

The easy part would be to wire another another car to the Felicia and test if I can write to the ECU through VAG-COM.

Well... yes. That or charging your battery at home with a charger.

But before that, let's start simple and be methodical. Please tell me in detail how did you check the wiring between ECU and immobilizer? Which associated connectors did you check for corrosion?

One other thing, just checking to be sure: do you have a multimeter? Do you know how to use it? If not, do you have a neighbour / friend that knows how to use it?

 

PS

No need to quote my entire post if you reply immediately after me. If other members replied in between, address them by their name if you answer to a specific one or need further guidance from one of them.

Edited 8 January, 2015 by RicardoM

[fusan]

@RicardoM

I have not tried any measuring this time. I did some months ago when the issue appeared for the first time. The results are on page one, post 26.

I do have an multimeter and my brother is an electronic engenieer so he could help.

What wires do you want me to measure?

[RicardoM]

Before starting, a few questions.

Does your alternator have a filter capacitor? It looks like a white prism (see photo)

Does your brother have a portable digital oscilloscope? When you'll be able to start the engine It would be very useful to measure the AC ripple on the battery with engine running at variou RPM by setting the input channel on AC coupling and capturing on screen any abnormal spikes from alternator or ignition system.

 

1) I would like you to measure the voltage on battery.

2) Disconnect the positive battery cable, insert an ammeter and measure the standby current. Mention if you have a car alarm and a radio.

3) Leave the positive battery cable disconnected for 5 minutes. Reconnect it.

4) Try again the adaptation procedure with VAG-COM. If successful, go to 5.

5) Start the engine and measure again the voltage on battery at idle then at 2000 rpm.

6) Turn headlights on, fan blower on full speed, rear window heater on. Repeat step 5. Stop the engine.

 

Depending on your reply I will advice further.

 

PS

Did you experience other weird problems like intermittent engine stalling or similar events related to electrical systems? Wiggling various cables in the engine bay had any weird effect?

Edited 9 January, 2015 by RicardoM

[fusan]

The last couple of days has been storm and Monsun Rain, so I havent got to check anything. Today the weather is nice and sunny so this is what I checked:

 

I took a picture of the Alternator and it looks like it has a Filter Capacitor: http://imgur.com/X7YdF3N

 

My brother does not have a portable digital oscilloscope, but we could connect a non portable through a long wire. Didn't need to get the car running before.

 

I assume that you wanted me to measure the battery to make sure it had enough of power/volt to be able to write the Immobilizer, adaption.

The battery is discharged so we connected my brothers car to mine and tried to write, but was without succes.

If you want me to measure the discharged battery anyway, Ill be glad to do it.

 

The Engine is still bloked by immobilizer each time I turn the ignition of and the Immobilizer still have no fault codes.

We tried to disconnect the connecttor from the immobilizer to the ring arround the key barrel and it gave this error:

 

VAG-COM Version: Release  311.2-N

 

Control Module Part Number: 1H0 953 257  B 

  Component and/or Version: IMMO VWZ3Z0X3352335 V00

           Software Coding: 09600

            Work Shop Code: WSC 00416

1 Fault Found:

01128 - Immobilizer Pickup Coil (D2)

        35-00 - -

 

 

[RicardoM]

fusan,

Leaving aside for now the digitall oscilloscope part, I am surprised to read that you didn't follow my test plan as indicated. In fact you did what YOU thought is better instead. I have a diagnosis strategy that I will be happy to reveal once you do exactly what I asked you to do in the exact order and come up with the measurements. I spent my free time trying to help you and since you said you have no technical experience I am expecting you to comply. If not, you can buy a new/used ECU+immob+keys kit and hope it will not fail exactly the same after a while.

[fusan]

Ricardo

I apologise for making my own assumptions. It was not an attempt to waiste your time or doubt in you.

I will follow your instructions from post #45 closely and report back tomorrow.

[fusan]

The picture of the Alternator: http://imgur.com/X7YdF3N

 

1) I would like you to measure the voltage on battery.

    Volt Measured to 12.48

2) Disconnect the positive battery cable, insert an ammeter and measure the standby current. Mention if you have a car

    alarm and a radio.

    I do have a radio but no car alarm. Currently I was not able to see any reading. (Multimeter was set on 10A and DC). It looked like

    there was absolutely no current. 

3) Leave the positive battery cable disconnected for 5 minutes. Reconnect it.

    Done

4) Try again the adaptation procedure with VAG-COM. If successful, go to 5.

    Tried but the engine still didnt start for moree than 1 sec. When I turned the ignition of and on again, the Immo error was back.

Edited 12 January, 2015 by fusan

[fusan]

I found out that I blew the fuse on the multimeter when trying to measure the current. So Ive got another multimeter and the measurments, 

when using 10A were 0.32. After a sec it went down to 0.18 and again down to allmost 0 a second after.