KU57 MLZ - Injector issues I think, No fault codes. Misfire/hesitation and Intermittent smoke. (Pic Heavy)

[AP Automotive]

Wires faulty, Repaired wire to crank sensor

[amk2vr6]

Funnily enough I've tried to get in touch with Crasher from there. He seems to know alot about the 2.0 16v engine, but no joy yet.

[amk2vr6]

Wires faulty, Repaired wire to crank sensor

 

Can I ask was it faulty from the 3 pin connector to the sensor itself or hidden away in the loom?

[amk2vr6]

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=331796 - BKD engine wont start after injectors swap >I know yours isn't a BKD <

 

PS: I would try posting on this forum above. The chaps across the pond are very good at the derv tech.

 

 

And......also try a post here too, if you have not already:

 

http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/forum.php

 

http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-sportback-8p-chassis/216867-2-0-tdi-bmn-injector-issues-i-think-no-fault-codes-misfire-hesitation-intermitt.html#post2163667

 

:P

[AP Automotive]

My fault was in the loom, & it was down to the diagnosis that I 1. Managed to find the break & 2 locate the break in the loom.

 

I suggest you do wire checks & if faulty locate your issue.

 

Theres no specific answer to this, its a matter of time & testing as each fault can have different causes

[amk2vr6]

Just a thought, I wonder if the bolts that are holding the injector down are too stretched and causing the injector to lift slightly under pressure? Sounds silly but you have 400+ Psi pushing out of the cylinder, and up to 29,000Psi (I've read) coming out of the injector also forcing it upwards. A slightly stretch of the bolt would be enough? Hence why they are stretch bolts and are use once only?

[amk2vr6]

My fault was in the loom, & it was down to the diagnosis that I 1. Managed to find the break & 2 locate the break in the loom.

 

I suggest you do wire checks & if faulty locate your issue.

 

Theres no specific answer to this, its a matter of time & testing as each fault can have different causes

 

Thank you!!!

 

One last question - Was the break around the bend of the loom near the bottom of the block?

[AP Automotive]

Yes, then the wire carries on round past the oil filter housing. That was the area that was faulty

[amk2vr6]

Yes, then the wire carries on round past the oil filter housing. That was the area that was faulty

 

Thank you so much. I read elsewhere someone had a split there and caused problems with Crank sensor too.

 

I will check it out this weekend.

 

Thanks again, I appreciate it

[flat-eric]

Yeah mines lumpy on idle when cold, I get a lump of smoke when I start up as well.

[amk2vr6]

ITS FIXED! HAHAHA.

I'll update this later, just grabbing something to eat now.

[amk2vr6]

Right, where to start!

 

First of all, I had the bits on order from eBay and TPS when I found a post on UK-MK4 forum where a chap said that the injector clamp bolts can stretch over time. I PM'd him for more info and he said that a friend of his is an Ex Master Tech at VW who now owns his own independent garage and he has seen stretched bolts a few times!

 

Anyway, Got a set of seals - 03G 198 051D - from eBay for £60 delivered from Plymouth Audi (Normally an eye watering £107.33!!). I ordered the rest from TPS - 

 

N10 581 101 - x5 rocker bolt - £5.65 for all

WHT 003 179 - x8 injector bolt - £16.48 for all

03G 145 215 A - tandem pump seal - £6.79.

 

I also ordered Genuine Oil, filter, fuel filter and air filter for good measure - Funnily enough these bits from TPS where cheaper than Euro's with a 25% discount!

 

Anyway, I cracked on...

 

Cam cover off and visual inspection of Cams again after removing rocker arm -

 

 

Looking at Cylinder 3 lobes -

 

 

Exhaust -

 

 

Inlet - 

 

 

Anyway, I stopped taking so many pics now and cracked on. I whipped the injectors out and noticed immediately why they are called stretch bolts!! Now I know I reused the injector bolts last weekend when I replaced injector #3, but I knew what I was doing, made sure I didn't over tighten them so not to snap them and immediately ordered a full set of new ones.

 

 

Pretty obvious why they are USE ONCE. No idea who was working on the car previously, but they are numpties! Previous owner said it was an independent garage, and had also been looked at by Skoda too!

Reusing the injector bolts, and damaging injector seals. Silicone sealant everywhere too - worrying stuff.

 

 

After removing the injectors, I kept finding pieces of silicone around the base of the injectors and in the injector holes!

 

 

I made sure to clean the seats as best as I could without a compressor and air line. No damage at all.

 

 

I then went to remove the Tandem Pump, and found it was pretty much stuck on! Thats where the silicone was (aswell as the cam cover I removed last weekend)

 

 

The battery on my phone then died :(

 

I managed to get the pump off easily enough, but it took me 40 minutes with a stanley blade to clean the mating surface on the head, and the back of the pump. I then removed the pulled out the internal fuel rail and cleaned it up, using a piece of hose to blow through the head. I found no end of tiny pieces of silicone everywhere!

 

I cleaned the injectors and the nozzles, and used fresh engine oil to lube up the bottom before putting the new O-Rings into place. I also poured a tiny bit down into the injector holes too lining the walls. I managed to press them into place with my hands while rotating them left and right. I torqued them up to 3NM and 270° in one hit. New plunger and adjusting bolt too.  I then refitted the rocker arm shaft using new bolts - 20NM and 90°. New Tandem gasket and bolts torqued to 20NM. New Fuel Filter and air filter fitted while I was working on it.

 

And after about 5 minutes of priming and cranking the engine over on and off in 5 second blasts, but with a massive cloud of smoke... I expected it because of the oil in the injector bores. After 20 seconds the smoke disappeared and it purred.

 

The engine was noticeably quieter too, and had a perfect tick over with no lumps bumps or misfires. haha.

 

I took some pictures after tidying up this evening of the bolts, gasket and rocker adjusters and plungers.

 

 

You can see they have stretched different amounts, and one head is rounded off too. The clamp marks are from my mole grips.

 

 

Plungers - All well worn, but notice the one furthest right was so worn the edge had chipped. Excuse the finger nails - bath time in a moment! lol

 

 

Adjusters with a lip to the edge and grooves worn into them -

 

 

Siliconed gasket!!

 

 

We took the car for a spin and it pulls so well! It is immense for a 2.0 diesel engine, and reasonably refined and quiet too. Still a diesely smell coming from the car, but my mate has borrowed it for the week to put some miles on it, and I will see what its like after 100 miles.

 

I really suggest anyone with a lumpy idle or noisy engine should replace injector seals. They come with the plungers and adjusters too. Mine has done 146k miles, but has FSH and serviced every 10k too, not on longlife and you can see just how worn they are above.

Even if you dont have a misfire, the difference of noise at idle is night and day. I'll try and get a video to compare the earlier one when he pops round tomorrow.

 

I am now a very happy man. I'd just like to thank everyone who has helped me across the various forums

 

THANKS!

 

Tony.

 

[amk2vr6]

Just to add, I think this was actually caused by the injector bolts stretching. All of the seals I removed today where fine. It was last weekend that I removed injector #3 with the dodgy ones.

 

Not sure though if they stretched over time, or if the 'mechanic' who worked on it last reused them causing them to lose tension.

 

The pieces of silicone floating between Tandem pump and injector wouldn't have helped either though.

 

And again, thanks to you all.

 

[chris4500uk]

Glad you got it fixed!

 

You'll be an expert on the 2.0 PD170 now haha 

[amk2vr6]

Glad you got it fixed!

 

You'll be an expert on the 2.0 PD170 now haha 

Haha, getting there mate!

[Plantman]

Great news dude!

 

It was a bit shocking to see the amount of hack and slash by the previous owners!

[amk2vr6]

Tell me about it. I had the same with our old zafira. They had removed the head to solve a smoking problem, but hadn't even put all the exhaust manifold bolts back in, and one of the cam caps was finger tight!! And the smoking was because they had cut the dpf out and not had it mapped out of the ECU and was in pretty much permanent regen!

Idiots should be banned from owning tools.

Edited 12 May, 2014 by amk2vr6

[evildream]

First of all thank you for this post. I believe this issue is common after injector recall by the dealer as I have find many posts about the same / similar symptoms but no one had a diagnosis / solution.

I have also a TDI PD 170hp from 2007 and most of your symptoms you described in your first post, so i guess i will have to check if new injectors are properly sealed and seated...

 

I have two questions for you:

- Did you had white smoke on startup also?

- In you video there's a sound of turbo whistle, which i also have, did this got away with your injector fix or did you do something to the turbo meanwhile - i guess i didn't find anything related with it in this thread...

 

Thanks!

Edited 26 August, 2014 by evildream

[silver1011]

Great thread, and even better ending.

 

I too had my injectors replaced under the VOSA recall by my main dealer, the car was never the same again, to the point I had to sell.

 

I do miss my vRS.

 

After all of the threads on poor starting and lumpy idles on cars messed about with by main dealers it's good to see a positive outcome on at least one PD170!

 

Surely the main dealer will have replaced the seals and stretch bolts during the recall!?

[evildream]

That's my question also.

From the many issues i've read after injector replacement with other users, i guess they only change the injectors (and loom?), using same seals and probably the same bolts?!

[amk2vr6]

Hi,

 

I have now sold the car to a very happy new owner. I am now driving a 2007 Leon FR TFSI - DSG - So basically the petrol VRS without a boot.

 

I am pretty sure the dealers would have been instructed to change the bolts and I'd also guess the seals came with the new injectors too, however, who knows if they did? All I can say is from my experience, changing the seals, and bolts and torquing down to the correct spec of 3nm + ONE 270' turn worked for me If you've tried every other avenue, and are still scratching your head with a lumpy PD, its got to be worth a pop.

 

Yes mine used to smoke intermittently at idle, and when smoking it used to smell strongly of unburnt diesel. It didn't cure the whistling turbo though unfortunately. I did some research, and it seems a lot of the PD's whine, so I left it as is.

[dmthornton]

Hi sorry to dig this thread up. I have been to three garages with what I think is the same injector problem. Spent 1.5k having the following done:

Car reg is LN07 XTH. Audi A3 PD170 BMN Engine

DPF removal and delete with economy remap

Four injectors replaced and new sets of seals ( two sets )

Terraclean

New turbo

New flap motor (for a separate issue but may have contributed)

The car is very difficult to start now. Takes a good five attempts with the key and several minutes of turning the engine over to get it to start. There is very thick eye-watering poisonous white smoke that pours out on idle and comes into the cabin through the vents. It's not losing any coolant and oil levels don't appear to have dropped.

I have a feeling that the garage who fitted the injectors did not fit them correctly or configured them right electronically. The car has 127K on the clock and apart from the symptoms mentioned it pulls very well and have just been on 160 mile trip today without a hiccup.

I know when I try to start it in the morning it will be the same story again.

Help please!

[silver1011]

Did you get this fixed? These issues with the PD170 continue to crop up...

 

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/339123-cold-starting-issues-running-out-of-ideas/