Really??

 

Tthe example I use to show I dont need a sub is MiB, where Will Smith is waiting at the Tunnel Authority - next to the giant fan.

 

At normal listening levels, you can feel your leg hairs moving in time to the fan beat.

 

 

My sub goes below 80hz maybe even 50 I doubt any floorstanders go that low. An active sub is essentially just an omnidirectional loud speaker that's got control over when its active and the level. A speaker in this respect has no control over the signal its receiving therefor you can't adjust it. It also has to handle the full range so is compromised.

You are right that some large main speakers go very low but its that last bit of detail that really makes all the difference. I suppose it depends on how much of a geek / audiophile you are but I wouldn't part with my sub the wife would go first.

My sub goes below 80hz maybe even 50 I doubt any floorstanders go that low. An active sub is essentially just an omnidirectional loud speaker that's got control over when its active and the level. A speaker in this respect has no control over the signal its receiving therefor you can't adjust it. It also has to handle the full range so is compromised.

You are right that some large main speakers go very low but its that last bit of detail that really makes all the difference. I suppose it depends on how much of a geek / audiophile you are but I wouldn't part with my sub the wife would go first.

 

In today's money (ie - allowing for inflation), my main speakers would cost about £5,000-8,000, the nearest equivalent in the makers range currently cost £4,000 and arent as good at the low end. They were designed to go down to 20Hz within the RMS range (as all good speakers should), and the actual roll-off is about 5Hz; I know most nasty modern "surround sound" speakers dont go much below 100hz, which is why I have stuck with my old ones, even though it made it a pain getting the surround elements to integrate smoothly.

 

Mine are a little sharp at the top end (age related I think), I am thinking of upgrading the tweeters, or fitting some super tweeters for a slightly sweeter top end (I can still hear ~22Khz despite pushing 50).

 

BTW, I have listen to subs in the £700--£1,000 range and they all sound a bit "same note" at very low frequencies.

I work in Telly sound for a living and was chatting to an esteemed college about the use of soundbars and possibly getting one for my parents. He recommended a simple Roth soundbar (he owns one-as well as a requisite 'big boy system'), which also can come with a basic sub. It doesn't do anything revolutionary you wont be able to decode DD, DTS 5.1, HD Audio, DTS Master etc), but rather just makes you telly sound a bit louder and cleaner. Movies and music sound better and speech is a little easier to make out.

 

Something like this ROTH

 

Just needs a couple of phono or stereo 3.5mm from telly to soundbar or a Toslink fibre

Edited 7 August, 201411 yr by Lady Elanore

BTW, I have listen to subs in the £700--£1,000 range and they all sound a bit "same note" at very low frequencies.

 

But surely that's the point? My amp accepts a dedicated input not taken from the speaker wire and then I have the level set to perfect volume and crossover frequency almost nothing. That way most of the time the sub does nothing but adds a great big smash of bass during an explosion or low frequency event. The low frequency events are determined by the directors of the film so I know my subs working only when intended without a sub and using bass heavy loudspeakers it will wash out the treble and midrange. Your speakers sound very high quality I have a friend with some very early warfdale cabinet speakers who wont part with them and they are worth about £15k ( he's a sound engineer also clinging onto laserdisc ;-). but they just aren't designed for the new digital sources so can't recreate the cinema experience we have the same arguments but even he has to concede mine sounds awesome during the saving private Ryan beach landings. The neighbours don't agree

it's funny that in TV there is still no agreement for a standard balance of DD 5.1. There is a technical standard, but not one for what is actually put onto those 6 sources. A lot of the problem seems to come from the Fold-Down ratio. This is a present ratio of how things like commentary in sport is put into the 5.1 coder. Do you put the commentary just on the centre channel? perhaps you put it on the front pair and make it a little stereo in nature. Or do you put it on all 3 front channels? So lets assume you use the 3 front channels, then the problem becomes how do you derive a stereo mix (the Fold-down ratio) for the average listener/viewer at home who doesn't have 5.1. SKY and the BBC have slightly different ratios :( Then you have some supervisors who like to roll a little of the LF into the .1 channel although many reserve that for it's original purpose BOOM!!!!  

 

They can't even make levels appear similar between Freeview HD and SD content (DD content proving to be a problem once again) The standard fold-down spec for say Sport, may not work for a movie.

The Panasonic phono audio outputs (if you have them)  have nothing to do with the internal TV amplifier.  So what ever loudspeaker or amplifier you have in the TV, they will not affect the phono outputs.   You can then use the Aux input to any Hi Fi system you like.  Worth a try.

Actually,the internals are decent quality (as far as I can tell, but as we age our range decreases - something I tried many years ago with teen age apprentices- they could "hear" fro about 10hz to many KHZ, where I as almost 30 could tell that something like 20k tone was there, but not hear it.

But surely that's the point? My amp accepts a dedicated input not taken from the speaker wire and then I have the level set to perfect volume and crossover frequency almost nothing. That way most of the time the sub does nothing but adds a great big smash of bass during an explosion or low frequency event. The low frequency events are determined by the directors of the film so I know my subs working only when intended without a sub and using bass heavy loudspeakers it will wash out the treble and midrange. Your speakers sound very high quality I have a friend with some very early warfdale cabinet speakers who wont part with them and they are worth about £15k ( he's a sound engineer also clinging onto laserdisc ;-). but they just aren't designed for the new digital sources so can't recreate the cinema experience we have the same arguments but even he has to concede mine sounds awesome during the saving private Ryan beach landings. The neighbours don't agree

 

 

That is NOT how they are supposed to work; sadly, it is how most of the sub£5,000 models work. If you are using satellite speakers, the sub is supposed to cover up to, and slightly overlap the frequency range of the smaller speakers.

 

What you have is the surround sound equivalent of the old Sony head phone "Bass boost", a one note replacement of a wide range of subtle deep bass notes and harmonics. If you have a copy of MiB - go listen to the scene I mentioned, the fan should give a deep "wheeeOOOP" throbbing sound, not a single booming sound.

Edited 8 August, 201411 yr by GentleGiant

That is NOT how they are supposed to work; sadly, it is how most of the sub£5,000 models work. If you are using satellite speakers, the sub is supposed to cover up to, and slightly overlap the frequency range of the smaller speakers.

 

What you have is the surround sound equivalent of the old Sony head phone "Bass boost", a one note replacement of a wide range of subtle deep bass notes and harmonics. If you have a copy of MiB - go listen to the scene I mentioned, the fan should give a deep "wheeeOOOP" throbbing sound, not a single booming sound.

 

Sorry don't have it Ill just have to take it under advice.

Sorry, for some weird reason this posted in the wrong thread

Edited 8 August, 201411 yr by GentleGiant

I think that there is still much to debate as to what you are actually getting in the way of feeds on your 6 channels (assuming 5.1). After all, if the .1 channel is being fed with F/Xs rather than a general  LF from the film/prog etc it should almost be a standalone speaker. But as I have said previously, the source of TV 5.1 still operates in a vague way, so perhaps there isn't a perfect way to set up a sub with any particular surround system (again I am assuming that you listen to TV and Film soundtracks, as well as music). I know of several sound supervisors in TV that refuse to put anything in to the .1 channel (and arguably they may be correct) as they aren't making a film and therefore there is no need for an FX driven channel to be used.

For most "music" sound mixing, anything below 100Hz is mono anyway, they only encode it otherwise if they are after a specific effect (ie a double bass moving across the sound stage).

when you say 'most music', which form of entertainment are you referring to? DVD, TV show, Movie etc

Actual music, as opposed to car crashes, explosions, and people screaming as 30ft lobsters attack.

 

Speaker physics ....

 

Low frequencies spread evenly, that is why you only need one sub; the higher frequencies are directional, hence the need for multiple speakers to get any depth of field/stereo effects

Actual music, as opposed to car crashes, explosions, and people screaming as 30ft lobsters attack.

 

Speaker physics ....

 

Low frequencies spread evenly, that is why you only need one sub; the higher frequencies are directional, hence the need for multiple speakers to get any depth of field/stereo effects

 

I Think sound waves are still omnidirectional for high frequencies or LF. However your ear can detect the source with High Frequencies where as it can't with low frequencies. That's how It was described to me any way. The cone of the speaker pushes the air so subs normally face down which means the sound spreads out 360° where as the Base cone or driver in a large speaker is pointed toward the listener.

Subs face down to use the gap between the cone and the floor as a bass extender;  to do with cost/size rather than physics. There are omni-directional speakers for higher frequencies, but they use special baffles and are very expensive to get right.

 

Even then, you can judge a high frequency source much easier than a low frequency - why do you think the emergency services all use high frequency sirens?? They only include a few low notes to warn people who have lost HF hearing due to excessive heavy rock music or that cr@p chavs pump out of their cars (often damaging their own kids hearing before the child is old enough to learn to talk).

I broadly understand the physics of sound as I am a TV/Radio/Film sound engineer with over 30 years experience. But what I don't think people realise is what is actually put onto the specific tracks that they listen to on their 5.1/7.1/9.2 or whatever they are feeding into their amps. Many receivers have a facility called 'Double Bass' (or similar) and this rolls bass into the .1 channel, but what I am saying also, is that many TV shows don't necessarily feed bass into the .1 channel at all, so your Sub may have nothing feeding into it unless you use something akin to the Double Bass facility.

 

One day we will agree on a format, but it will be too late by then, as we will be too busy arguing over the format for 4K (that seems a long way off for even a general agreement of spec for TV :( )

Edited 20 August, 201411 yr by Lady Elanore

Subs face down to use the gap between the cone and the floor as a bass extender;  to do with cost/size rather than physics. There are omni-directional speakers for higher frequencies, but they use special baffles and are very expensive to get right.

 

Even then, you can judge a high frequency source much easier than a low frequency - why do you think the emergency services all use high frequency sirens?? They only include a few low notes to warn people who have lost HF hearing due to excessive heavy rock music or that cr@p chavs pump out of their cars (often damaging their own kids hearing before the child is old enough to learn to talk).

 

I think actually they use high frequencies in sirens because outdoors it travels further than low frequencies. High frequencies are easily absorbed by physical matter which is why if your in a room with nothing to stop the sound waves reaching your ear then you can hear the treble however if you go in the next room and shut the door you will only hear the bass. This is because the higher frequencies are easily absorbed by the door and wall where as the bass will travel through it. However outdoors a high frequency scream will travel further than a low frequency sound as there is nothing to absorb / deflect the sound waves. That said I think your going a little bit off topic with the analogy. I take your point earlier about good quality Stereo speakers often delivering better sound quality than a dedicated Home cinema system. But I still think there is a place for the Sony / Onkyo Amplifiers hooked up to say a set of KEF speakers with a REL sub for a perfect Cinema quality experience. There may even be a place for a top draw sound bar by say Yamaha as long as you are pushed for space and don't mind the compromise. As lady Eleanor says though its more about the source and the decoding than the speaker medium. I think your trying to compare good speakers on say a pro logic or pseudo surround source with what im talking about which is a dedicated 5-7 channel surround source in a movie that's been specifically designed to create a sound stage. For this I don't think a soundbar or 5K speakers will cut the mustard.

I would be happy to be proved wrong it might save me some money.