Sensible way to upgrade front disc brakes?

[malmoy]

I've just returned from a long trip to Italy on German autobahns fully loaded in my 1.8tsi Elegance (18inch wheel) estate and found that the brakes are limited at high speed and load. I'm wondering if it’s a simple upgrade to fit the V6 front discs without a caliper change (unlikely) or with a caliper change (more likely)? Does anyone have any experience of this?

Please don't take this question as an opportunity to talk about driving technique. I want better brakes as I am quite happy using my brakes to their fullest and I expect them to work. (sorry if this sounds grumpy) And no, before you ask, I don’t sit on the brakes downhill, that’s what the gearbox is for. This is about high speed and heavy braking more than just once.

Mal.

[JakeBlade]

Sounds like simple brake fade. Will vented / cross-drilled discs fit? Open question: I don't know the answer.

[malmoy]

Its is brake fade, they are already vented and now a liitle bit blue!

[misterbee13]

Give merlinmotorsport a call. They should sort u out with upgraded pads.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[malmoy]

Good thinking, I'll give them a call. I was over thinking things, but I do still like the idea of bigger discs, if nothing else to fill the void inside the 18inchers!

[Roots Supercharger]

My 2009 car is fitted from new with blanked off front air ducks (from under the front bumper to the front of the wheel arch). The plastic blanking plates seem very easy to remove if required.

[Sparkly]

the 345mm setup which I think is on the V6 Superb and is also found on the Audi S3, Mk5 Golf R32 and potentially a couple of others is a different Caliper so no chance to change the carrier and add in a bigger disc I am afraid.

 

If your 1.8tsi is the same as mine (MY11 4x4) then you will have 312mm front discs and 286mm rear discs.  These give you fantastic access to uprated pads that will withstand the heat and resist fade, Mintex M1144 or perhaps EBC Yellowstuff are worth looking at as road legal options.  This wont stop your discs going blue though, better ventilation will help but if you continue to find the heat limit of the discs (how much they can realistically absorb/dissipate then I would look at a move to a setup with a larger disc, just take care because adding too much unsprung weight will adversely affect ride.

[dieselV6]

Perhaps worth looking at your discs first, since you mentioned they are drilled, are they alloy or steel? If alloy, they'd be worse for extended braking, perhaps better for unsprung mass but on my RIP Octy 1, I found they braked less, ate pads more, and faded just as bad as stock.

 

Edit: I suspect that inferior alloy disc performance is because while alloys have higher heat capacity than steel, they also have far lower melting point, and in the end a glowing red steel brake discs cool faster while braking than a plasticised alloy disc on account of over 600deg higher temp difference to ambient.

 

On my Mk1 (2.5TDI, heavier than your car) for the last 6 years I have been using good quality standard steel discs (Febi, TRW), and EBC Yellow brake pads. Together with Castrol React Performance Dot 4 brake fluid (used to be called Super DOT 4, note DOT5.1 makes clutch cylinder squeak after a while because it is too thin), the setup is good for repeated 140mph - 50mph braking on autobahn, and frankly in 6 years since I fitted these first time, I have not managed to fade the brakes yet (and I did fade stock setup). EBC greens also worked, but pads cracked after a while.

 

No downsides to steel disc/EBC yellow combination so long as you brake often enough (from description you do), and you are prepared to replace the discs every 2nd pad set. I'm on my 4th set of pads and 2nd set of discs since I started using EBC Yellows. Brake fluid replaced every 2 years, certainly no worse than stock for ageing, and much more resistant to water content.

Edited 5 September, 2014 by dieselV6

[Damo]

If your 1.8tsi is the same as mine (MY11 4x4) then you will have 312mm front discs and 2896mm rear.

That is one big rear disc

[Sparkly]

That is one big rear disc

 

I think your post has a typo in Damo :yes:

[Sparkly]

ATE Super Blue R Brake Fluid - 280 degrees boiling point - cost to buy 2 litres - circa £20

 

Motul RBF600 Brake fluid - 312 degrees boiling point - cost to buy 2 litres - circa £50

 

Motul RBF660 Brake fluid - 325 degrees boiling point - cost to buy 2 litres - circa £60

 

All the above are Dot4

[dieselV6]

You do not need to go as high with temperature, it is actually wet boiling point that's more important in daily car use, and high enough viscosity to prevent clutch squeaks.

I think RBF was thick enough, do not remember the other one, there is a viscosity list somewhere on the net.  Motul 5.1 is what actually caused clutch squeak on my Mk1, so I am a bit prejudiced against using any other Motul brake fluid, but as I said based on viscosity RBF should work. Keep in mind it's still double the price of Castrol.

[Sparkly]

You do not need to go as high with temperature, it is actually wet boiling point that's more important in daily car use, and high enough viscosity to prevent clutch squeaks.

I think RBF was thick enough, do not remember the other one, there is a viscosity list somewhere on the net.  Motul 5.1 is what actually caused clutch squeak on my Mk1, so I am a bit prejudiced against using any other Motul brake fluid, but as I said based on viscosity RBF should work. Keep in mind it's still double the price of Castrol.

 

Those are wet boiling points above 

 

I succesfully tracked my Mk2 Fabia vRS running 215bhp other mods, Brembo Four Pot Calipers with EBC Redstuff, HEL Braided lines and ATE Super Blue R Fluid.

 

The Super Blue was perfect over 4*15 minutes very hard sessions that saw the pads smoking with no loss of pedal.

 

No issues whatsoever in normal driving too, I know a good few members who switched to ATE also for road and track use and have all reported back positively.

 

Perhaps no need to go up to the RBF's unless you are looking at extended track work in a heavy car.

[dieselV6]

Those are wet boiling points

No, the ones you quoted are dry boiling points. I have just found a list I made in my notes a good while ago, you can search on Internet to verify it:

 

ATE Super Blue R: dry 280degC, wet 202 degC

Motul RBF600: dry 312degC, wet 216 degC

Motul RBF660: dry 325degC, wet 204 degC

Castrol React Performance: dry 286degC, wet 184degC

stock DOT4: dry 230degC, wet 155degC

 

Plus I used Castrol Super DOT 4 for many years on 3 cars with no side effects such as squeaks or accelerated ageing/water ingress (e.g. Castrol SRF and Motul RBF are known for quick ageing, they are more track fluids than everyday use)

Edited 5 September, 2014 by dieselV6

[Sparkly]

I'll always admit when I'm wrong

 

Had intended to write down the wets...................................and failed.

 

If by quick ageing you mean more regular fluid changes needed, then I understand that and is a consideration for anyone uprating their fluids as you say they are less "long life"

[malmoy]

I've just sent tis e-mail to my Skoda dealer, should be interesting to see what they say?

 

My Superb has, in my opinion and experience, marginal front brakes.  The car is booked in with you for a service in a few weeks’ time and I have asked for the discs to be replace as they are worn.  As far as I have managed to research the front discs I have are 288mm (1ZE) but, as I have 18inch wheels, I should be able to fit the V6 3.6 (1LK) discs that are 345mm.  As my discs need replacing anyway would your service department fit new discs, calipers and mountings?  If they can please can I have a quote.  I hope you can consider this request as it should be a simple job using standard parts that will usefully improve by brakes.  And, it may be an interesting job for you technicians?

[freeglide]

Rears will be 286mm and not 288. 

 

FG

[james0james]

Hi,I can only suggest what I would do re testing of your brakes under tough conditions.

 

I would have a chat with your local friendly mot test center,explain your situation ask the testing centre to check your brakes at a pre determined time on their rolling  road just get your brakes up to temperature and load up your vehicle same as it was when you had probs.

 

My not so local testing station would be happy to do that for free,just nice people really and not into ripping off motorists.

 

I have experienced brake fade before whilst driving on a motorway stop start stop start in road works for 18 miles (yes M25) and upon leaving motorway descending onto a roundabout my brakes had little effect.

 

Above was last year in a newish 13000 mile (2 year old transit type of vehicle but not a transit).

 

I put it down to my driving technique  and when I have been in similar recent situations I test out the brakes before I need to slow down rapidly.

 

best of luck.

 

James.