1.4 tsi engine hiccups

[martinko]

I got my Octavia Elegance 1.4 TSI on January.

 

Generally I am very pleased with the car (made about 14.000 km) and especially with the engine, however since the very start I noticed that under low revs (1200-1700 rpm) and when I press the throttle very gently, the engine hiccups/stutters a bit. Specially noticebale when I start the engine and drive off some parking with engine cold (but this also happens in summer so the outside temperature doesnt really affect it). 

 

This only for the first few 100 meters, then apparently the engine warms up, and it's all OK...like it never happened. A few months ago when I took the car to the service for the first check-up they told me they did not see any mistakes.

 

I don't feel this problem has got any worse and doesnt bothe me too much, however I think it may indicate or initiante some other, perhaps more serious problems?

 

What is your opinion on this?

 

regards

[GTR27]

One of the guys on an Australian forum has noticed this exact effect. 1.4 manual.... I'll see if I can direct him here to explain his issue. Sounds the same though. Iirc, his was only in Australian winter though, now it's heated up, it doesn't happen.

Our winter can be like your summer.... Which explains why it hasn't changed for you.

[Mohamad]

if i understand you correctly, i have this same issue with my 1.4TSI & DSG octy3 , and i live in Egypt , even in summer which gets very hot in here the car every morning must stutter 2 times when i first move with it, and as you said my local dealer also can't see any problems.

[Geek42]

I have experienced something a bit like this when stop-start is active. When the SS system restarts the engine it seems to take a couple of seconds to sort itself out, which means that if you pull away immediately it starts to go, hesitates, raises the revs itself (anti-stall?) then settles down and becomes smooth again. Of course, in real time this is quite momentary, and more like the first 5 meters rather than the first 100 meters.

 

It only happens with gentle throttle usage (although enough that it would pull away smoothly if it hadn't just restarted the engine). I don't think it's unreasonable for the engine management to take a couple of seconds to settle after a restart, so I don't think it's an issue. I find it quite natural to cause this though, as the restart occurs on depressing the clutch, and it doesn't normally take 2 seconds from that point to start letting it out again, so quite easy to get the stutter if you don't modify your natural rhythm a little.

 

I find a slight pause before letting the clutch out works, or giving it more revs than normally required seems to override the problem, but it needs more revs from the off as once you hit the glitch there appears to be a momentary disconnect between the accelerator position and actual throttle response as the ECU does it's own thing.

 

This only ever occurs when SS restarts the car though, never under any other circumstance.

[Gerrycan]

Hi martinko,

I'm the one in Australia that GTR27 referred to.

Exactly the same symptoms you describe.

I thought it was worse during our winter weather when the jerkiness could be quite bad, but I now realise that it is there all the time just less severe in the warmer weather (going to be a hot 39 degrees centigrade today)

I upgraded to 98 octane over the last few fills at the dealer's suggestion but it has not made any discernable difference and I may switch back to 95 Octane

On one occasion I left it with the dealer overnight, they drove it next morning and pronounced it as ok. Their side road where their test was conducted was very bumpy and probably disguised the symptoms.

To be fair the problem is a relatively minor inconvenience and soon clears so it is difficult to diagnose, and you wouldn't know whether any action that has been taken has fixed it until the next morning.

The foreman thought it was probably something to do with the Lamda sensors, exhaust gas fed back into the intake to speed the warm up process.

 

It starts first flick of the key everytime, no problems with tickover,  when the engine warms it is fine and for the rest of the day. I am getting good fuel economy.

Most of my driving is just short urban journeys, has been since new and I have only covered 4,500 km since June, and I don't think that helps.

The car is a manual and not fitted with stop/start.

[martinko]

At first, I must say I'm so very pleased to be part of such a constructive community on this forum!

Thanks to all who replied...especially the Australian mates!

 

Returning to the issue... to be honest, so far it doesn't bother me much, perhaps this is quite a common issue and it's just us being hypersensitive

It may also be that because my last 2 cars were turbodiesels and having the manual gearbox on my octy I tend to change gear early and drive under low revs - maybe most users dont do it so they do not notice this problem

 

Cheers!

[Daveinuk]

I have experienced something a bit like this when stop-start is active. When the SS system restarts the engine it seems to take a couple of seconds to sort itself out, which means that if you pull away immediately it starts to go, hesitates, raises the revs itself (anti-stall?) then settles down and becomes smooth again. Of course, in real time this is quite momentary, and more like the first 5 meters rather than the first 100 meters.

 

It only happens with gentle throttle usage (although enough that it would pull away smoothly if it hadn't just restarted the engine). I don't think it's unreasonable for the engine management to take a couple of seconds to settle after a restart, so I don't think it's an issue. I find it quite natural to cause this though, as the restart occurs on depressing the clutch, and it doesn't normally take 2 seconds from that point to start letting it out again, so quite easy to get the stutter if you don't modify your natural rhythm a little.

 

I find a slight pause before letting the clutch out works, or giving it more revs than normally required seems to override the problem, but it needs more revs from the off as once you hit the glitch there appears to be a momentary disconnect between the accelerator position and actual throttle response as the ECU does it's own thing.

 

This only ever occurs when SS restarts the car though, never under any other circumstance.

I have the same issue with my 1.4 TSI manual following SS. I managed to stall it several times before I learnt to give it a bit more throttle following SS.

[Gerrycan]

At first, I must say I'm so very pleased to be part of such a constructive community on this forum!

Thanks to all who replied...especially the Australian mates!

 

Returning to the issue... to be honest, so far it doesn't bother me much, perhaps this is quite a common issue and it's just us being hypersensitive

It may also be that because my last 2 cars were turbodiesels and having the manual gearbox on my octy I tend to change gear early and drive under low revs - maybe most users dont do it so they do not notice this problem

 

Cheers!

I do not think you (or I) are being oversensitive. Like you my last car was a diesel Octavia 2 and I probably have the same driving habits but the symptoms have developed since having the car from new so there is something amiss. I would have been happier with my dealer if they had fitted a scanner during the cold start phase when I left it with them,

I am disinclined to buy one (OBD2 scanner) just because they did not do their job properly.

It is probably worthwhile looking around other VAG forums for 1.4 tsi Lamda issues since we have so few instances on Octavia 3s.

Edited 9 November, 2014 by Gerrycan

[PekoSI]

Yup mine does exactly the same when cold. Probably nothing to worry about. 

 

Pa Srečno vožnjo še naprej 

[GTR27]

Agreed that the 1.4 doesn't seem a popular choice on briskoda. It is in Australia, as that's the base model engine for everything bar the rs. We don't get any concessions on diesels, so unless you do massive k's (like 40000+ a year - 25k miles+) it isn't worth it. I think the hope is that someone in the UK will get it fixed and report, because Skoda Australia is a disgrace. Brush everything off and test us very poorly. Looking at how our UK brothers(and sisters) get treated, even with a small amount of 1.4s, you are much more likely to get a resolution than us. Even if you have a Skoda issued result, getting it applied to our car will still be difficult as they will claim 'their cars are different' despite being RHD, coming from the same factory, use all the same parts etc. Frustrating as a customer!

[small]

Mine also does this if you move off straight after start up. I wait 1 minute before driving off so the revs settle and engine isn't stone cold.

[Gerrycan]

Mine also does this if you move off straight after start up. I wait 1 minute before driving off so the revs settle and engine isn't stone cold.

Does that mean that when you start from cold that the tick over is initially affected as well (variable or higher revs ) or it ticks over normally while warming up?

 

What country are you from? So far we have two from Slovenia (forgive the anglicised spelling), and one each from Egypt and Australia.

The two poms, sorry Brits don't count as theirs are different stop/start related issues.

I'm originally from Essex by the way

Edited 10 November, 2014 by Gerrycan

[Gerrycan]

Ok, I have looked through other VAG forums and while not common there are other similar reports for TSI motors.

Most of them are much higher mileage but it seems there is no definitive solution.

Typically it is cited as a problem with inlet valve fouling (a common VAG problem but usually only after 40k km), and I can accept that although I would expect some associated warm engine warm engine issues as well. No one actually confirms that having the inlet valves cleaned has cured the problem although there was one case where a big improvement was achieved by going for a drive on a motorway and holding a lower gear so the engine ran at 3000/4000 rpm for 30 mins.

Must just shake the carbon loose because direct fuel injection is a partial cause of fouling as it does not wash the inlet valve.

 

Another case had a faulty fuel injector, replacing it fixed his problem. Apparently there were no errors being reported but it was discovered by testing the car with a special fuel monitoring system.

There were other reports related to faulty injectors too, but they usually replaced the lot.

 

Lots of cases where people have replaced coil packs (don't know why because that is usually a warm running problem), and various sensors but have still had the problems.

 

Others have suggested replacing PCV and diverter valves might fix the problem but again cannot find confirmation of whether any replacement actually did improve things.

 

Most of these cars are circa 50k to 100+k kilometres/miles and mine has only done 4500 km (3000 miles).

I am not confident that it will make any difference but taking the car for a spirited drive is probably the logical next step (and maybe some more internet searching)

Edited 13 November, 2014 by Gerrycan

[small]

Does that mean that when you start from cold that the tick over is initially affected as well (variable or higher revs ) or it ticks over normally while warming up?

.

What country are you from? So far we have two from Slovenia (forgive the anglicised spelling), and one each from Egypt and Australia.

The two poms, sorry Brits don't count as theirs are different stop/start related issues.

I'm originally from Essex by the way

Forgot to say that mine is a Mk2.

Sometimes the revs rise to about 1.2k rpm at start up in which case I wait for them to drop to normal before moving off which takes about 60 seconds. If I don't and drive off it is very erratic and hiccups

Edited 13 November, 2014 by small

[GTR27]

Gerrycan, remember that this engine is unique to the new model. Although it is a 1.4 TSI, it is a completely different engine to other 1.4tsi's, like in the golf (the 90tsi I'm referring to here, which was also in the mk2 Octavia).

Only a golf highline here has the 103, and dsg only. I think the new a3 gets the 103 (as a 110 with cylinder shutdown) and that's it from a VAG car perspective.

If the issue is a DI issue, then other cars may show similar problems. But this engine is relatively new, so make sure it's an apples to apples comparison. EA211 is the engine code iirc, so just make sure if someone is giving info, they confirm that is the engine they have.

Edited 13 November, 2014 by GTR27

[Minimoke]

Gerrycan, remember that this engine is unique to the new model. Although it is a 1.4 TSI, it is a completely different engine to other 1.4tsi's, like in the golf (the 90tsi I'm referring to here, which was also in the mk2 Octavia).

Only a golf highline here has the 103, and dsg only. I think the new a3 gets the 103 (as a 110 with cylinder shutdown) and that's it from a VAG car perspective.

If the issue is a DI issue, then other cars may show similar problems. But this engine is relatively new, so make sure it's an apples to apples comparison. EA211 is the engine code iirc, so just make sure if someone is giving info, they confirm that is the engine they have.

+1. You beat me to it. VAG was silly calling the new gen a 1.4TSI - it was bound to cause confusion with the previoius (and problematic) 1.4 engine.

 

From what I understand both VAG and Lexus vehicles seem to suffer most from carbon build up issues on direct injection engines.

 

But I would have expected a carbon build up to cause persistent misfire, and noticeable power loss. Unless I'm mistaken the symptoms described thus far are transient. Also the mileage done so far on on most EA211 engines must be below the expected limit for issues connected with carbon build up to manifest themselves?   

 

I suspect there must be something other than carbon build up causing this. 

[Gerrycan]

Agree with both Minimoke and GTR27 that carbon build up being unlikely in low mileage Mk 3s,  even with the way I usually drive.

 

'small' your problem is different to our Mk 3 issue. In my case at least the start up and initial tickover are unaffected. As the others said you also have a different engine and I think I saw references to your sort of problems in VW forums but cannot remember specifically where I 'm afraid.

If you are reporting a problem in a forum it does help to include as much detail as possible.

 

Modern engines are complex insofar as there are a lot of sensors and equipment added to meet consumption and emission standards.

It only takes one sensor to malfunction and the controlling ECU can be confused and cause seemingly unrelated symptoms and not record errors. Been there and done that with other vehicles.

Then there are 'mechanical' issues, injectors, EGR / PCV valves playing up and again they do not necessarily record errors.

The dealers are supposed to have the experience and the equipment to sort this stuff out but I think they lack the inclination to use them and just go for a test drive and announce "No problems".

It annoys me when I have to do the research to tell them what they should already know. I suspect that many of us have been in THAT situation.

 

It is a minor problem, but I would like to fix it.

[Gerrycan]

Funny thing happened during the mid morning pickup of in-laws for coffee.

Drove out the garage, and experienced no hiccups at all for the fist time since I became aware of it. 

The very short 1.5 km journey usually averages 8.5 l/100 and on this occasion was 6.5 l/100 (and no special effort or circumstances)

Not saying it is fixed but it suggests that there was something definitely wrong.

 

The only thing I may have done was when having a look around under the bonnet at where the sensors were located when I was listening for the starter whine in another thread.

Who knows, it may be something as simple as a bad connection?

[martinko]

Funny thing happened during the mid morning pickup of in-laws for coffee.

Drove out the garage, and experienced no hiccups at all for the fist time since I became aware of it. 

The very short 1.5 km journey usually averages 8.5 l/100 and on this occasion was 6.5 l/100 (and no special effort or circumstances)

Not saying it is fixed but it suggests that there was something definitely wrong.

 

The only thing I may have done was when having a look around under the bonnet at where the sensors were located when I was listening for the starter whine in another thread.

Who knows, it may be something as simple as a bad connection?

Hi Gerrycan, any news on this, how did your car behave since this event? When you mentioned your car averaged lower on your short trip made me think a lot about it. I noticed on my short trips I always get much higher averages, too.

Edited 22 November, 2014 by martinko

[Gerrycan]

Hi Gerrycan, any news on this, how did your car behave since this event? When you mentioned your car averaged lower on your short trip made me think a lot about it. I noticed on my short trips I always get much higher averages, too.

I only got a couple of days without the cold run jerkiness and then back to  'normal' .

I would always expect to get worse consumption on a short journey, especially when cold but the 'coincidence' of the two events was notable.

I don't like to fiddle under the bonnet of a new car but the issue is so transient.

[eyalasd]

any updated? gerry?

[Gerrycan]

Nearly 50k km later and I did nothing about it, and while it is still jerky on most cold starts the jerkiness is less obvious than I remember. Or I have just got used to it.

The car runs so well 98% of the time it seems churlish to complain.

[eyalasd]

18 hours ago, Gerrycan said:

Nearly 50k km later and I did nothing about it, and while it is still jerky on most cold starts the jerkiness is less obvious than I remember. Or I have just got used to it.

The car runs so well 98% of the time it seems churlish to complain.

tnx