PCN on the windscreen. Opinions, advice etc?

[Brimma]

It'll have terms on it. As I understand it's a legal requirement?

Either on the front or one of the sides if not a big sign next to it.

Does anyone ever read the terms, or just look at the prices?

[ben1990]

Just looked on google maps and I can see the meter that I paid at (the only one in the car park too). There is no terms sign nearby so no I didn't read the terms sign  :p . Also on google maps there is a sign at the car park entrance saying about the disc display car park but it is tucked away in some bushes on the inside so you most likely haven't seen it as you drive past. On the opposite side of the entrance there is a clear sign stating about Pay & Display.

[ben1990]

Update. Informal challenge was rejected and Notice to Owner has since arrived. My formal challenge is in its final draft stages ready to be sent. *cracks knuckles*

[Paul007]

Good luck but I think it'll be a case of Council 1, Tourist 0.

[ben1990]

Looking at their picture evidence I would not be so sure. The sign they took a picture of seems to indicate the disc display area being a different area to where we were parked. That was probably their strongest picture as well with the others only being of my car. I will keep you updated as I have a fair idea of the steps I will be taking in any scenario

[gadgetman]

Maybe worth seeing if there are any local members on the map who could take extra pictures for you.

[ben1990]

Could be worth a shot. Just to get opinions, the picture attached shows a couple of the pictures that the council took as 'evidence'. The first shot is the sign indicating the disc display area, however, this seems to indicate the Disc zone is the area behind the sign. The second part of the image shows where my car was parked in relation to that sign. If the sign is to be believed, we were not actually parked in the disc display area, following on from my main point of misleading signs. Please note that both pictures are the same quality as the council originals so the white sign on the right hand side of my car is, as far as I am concerned, irrelevant. I get the feeling that the Authority may just have shot themselves in the foot. I am mentioning this in my formal appeal to see if they acknowledge it (they do of course have to consider ALL points as failure to do so could amount to a Procedural Impropriety and is likely derail their claim for a PCN).  

[gadgetman]

http://m.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/10593013.Axe_set_to_fall_on_Pendle_disc_parking_scheme/

[gadgetman]

Looking at the entrance on Chappel Street on Google, one sign says disc parking, the other pay & display.

I'd look on the members map and see if someone local can take current pics for your appeal.

[ben1990]

The p&d sign being the attention grabber from exiting Holme street onto chapel street. The disc sign tucked away in the bushes on the left hand side barely above bumper height. That is also part of my appeal. I will look into the members map

[Brimma]

The disc parking sign doesn't seem very far away from your car - did you physically stop and read that sign when you parked?

In most car parks there will be a sign telling you the terms of parking, which may cover the whole car park, it doesn't only refer to parking bays behind the sign. Using your argument any parking bays in front of such a sign would be free

I accept you think you have a point in principle, but a potentially futile argument could end up costing you an awful lot more, not just financially, but mentally

[ben1990]

That's where the pay & display sign comes in. Posted the pic earlier in the thread. That sign we saw and read on the way in and it was facing the opposite way to the disc display sign pictured by the warden. My car was parked equidistant from both signs but in the 'apparent' pay & display zone. I think my case is fairly strong plus I may have already got them for a 'procedural impropriety'. That being the wording on the pcn not being clear about the alleged contravention

[Brimma]

Good luck

[ben1990]

May as well go all the way if need be as the discount option has gone. 50/50 at worst now. Just trying to nail my formal appeal so I have the best chance of success

[brad1.8T]

Good luck but I think it'll be a case of Council 1, Tourist 0.

 

I feel sorry for any tourist trying to make head or tail out the various carpark rules and regulations anywhere.  It is so ambiguous & confusing at times.

[ben1990]

Agreed. Looking at the last link that gadgetman posted earlier in the thread, it seems the type of car park has come under heavy scrutiny in the past. If I lose it may be time to open up those old wounds

[gadgetman]

I think throwing that fact that it has previously been raised and not addressed would show there is a clear signage issue.

Might also be worth contacting that newspaper & BBC watchdog (they've covered parking issues) to tell your story

[ben1990]

Absolutely . I am already planning my strategy should I lose at adjudication. Or if I win and the parking authority continue to pursue the pcn, heard of a few cases of that happening

[Paul007]

And the result was....?

[ben1990]

Funny you should ask. Council rejected my appeal, got letter today so it it going to the adjudicators. Still 0-0 at the moment. Quite often council's don't bother turning up to these hearings so I may opt for a face to face hearing to see if they do bother

[gadgetman]

Don't you also have to pay costs + fine if you lose the adjudicators appeal?

[ben1990]

Nope. Free adjudication and council can't claim costs. Nothing more to lose

[cheezemonkhai]

Those signs are confusing at best and I have to say I agree it looks more like you're outside the disk than inside.

Parking in the free area rather than the paid for area, surely you could argue that you've not cost them anything, because you actually paid to park in the free area (If they prove you did) and as such they have actually had a financial benifit not lost.

 

Either way, don't roll over.

 

I'd love to see the FOI request on this one too, as I bet there are plenty of people they've fined for parking in the wrong bit:

 

 - How many fines for parking in the wrong bit

 - How many appeals

 - What's been done to address poor signage.

 

That'll be worth £10 to see

[Girardi]

Why do people come up with signs intentionally meant to confuse / mislead?

 

To be honest, the very first picture ben posted was of a sign saying 'This is a Pay and Display car park'.

 

The sign should instead state 'This is a Pay and Display car park. Please note certain areas are for Disc Parking only where Pay & Display is not valid & will get you a silly ticket - please check before leaving your car' or similar. Yes it's a mouthful, but at least it's clearer.

 

I (and i'm sure most others) cannot be expected to walk all over the car park checking all of their 30 signs to check whether I'm legally parked before leaving the car. Ridiculous.

[ben1990]

Not going to roll over even if I lose at adjudication. Hopefully the adjudicator will grill the council about their signage at the hearing if they bother to send someone. The sign I pictured and the disc sign that the warden took face the opposite way indicating the area I was parked in was a P&D area. As stated earlier we didn't even overstay the free parking and because my P&D ticket showed my entry time it served the same purpose as a parking disc, I just paid for the privilege. Morally wrong that I have been penalised for effectively paying for a free car park. If I had gone hunting for a disc in one of the local retailers then there is a fair chance I would have been ticketed anyway. Going to be getting my appeal to the adjudicators sent soon (with all points included) and hopefully I will have a hearing date soon. Going to be attending in person to challenge the council to turn up aswell to try to present their case. In an odd way I am kind of looking forward to the hearing  :p.