starter motor or ignition relay?

theo_k · 14 February, 2016

getting a bit tired of the car now...

Originally the car would not start, battery was fine, starter motor replaced. Soon after I could hear the solenoid again (tak tak sound) and the car wouldnt start at all. Green flag came, checked the groundings the battery etc and the guy said it is probably the relay.

Now, where is the relay for the ignition? Under the steering wheel or in the engine? And how it is marked?

I searched a few topics but I could not find anything. Any help would be appreciated.

...or, could it be something else? Any opinions?

cheshire_cat · 14 February, 2016

as far as I know there isn't one I would check the battery voltage on a load tester and then under starter load then wiring check

SuperbTWM · 14 February, 2016

Sounds like a bad connection or earthing problem to me, on the large cables that go to the starter. If you can hear the starter solenoid trying to go then i would think the starter relay is ok. The bit that puts power to the actual starter motor is on the starter motor and would be brand new

Edited 14 February, 2016 by SuperbTWM

theo_k · 14 February, 2016

interesting. I Il try the connections again, I might get one of these sprays as well. So annoying... I ll take everything off.

The bit I dont understand is how the old starter went dead, I installed the new one, it would start ok however I could feel it struggles a little bit to start. Then it just went totally dead.

SuperbTWM · 14 February, 2016

Have you had the battery tested properly as mentioned above?

theo_k · 14 February, 2016

I permanently have a voltometer in the ca and it always read around 12 or 11.8 however it is not the factory one by any means. It can start the car even at 11.4

Reason being there is a sub and a couple of amps in the car (from the previous owner) and it needs that extra power.

Have I properly tested it? How is that done?

The guy from Green Flag came with a instrument to check the power/electricity and said battery as fine.

Ray Luxury-Yacht · 14 February, 2016

Ok, it seems that - from your description at least, and an 'internet diagnosis' - you might have two different issues here.

First issue is the starter. When you turn the key, you send a voltage down a wire from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid, which is an integral part of the starter motor assembly (and not a separate item as used to be the case on cars years ago).

The starter solenoid is your 'high power relay' basically, which switches high ampere current via a thick wire from the battery, to the brushes and commutator of the starter motor itself, making it spin. The solenoid also has the secondary job of pushing the starter motor cog outwards, so that it engages with the teeth on the flywheel, and hence turns the engine over.

If you are hearing a tak-tak-tak sound when you turn the key, then the solenoid is functioning correctly as it should, i.e. moving in it's casing. However, it is clearly not providing power to the motor itself.

Reasons for this could be:

dodgy high current switching within the solenoid unit itself, so a dodgy solenoid,

a dodgy motor assembly after the solenoid, which could be anything from the brushes, to the commutator, to the field cable windings on the armature of the motor. Jargon I know, but in simple terms - another dead motor unit...

a high resistance in the cables supplying the motor unit - these are the large red wires which run directly down from the battery to the starter motor, and include not just the wires but the connectors at the ends. The wires may be corroded and broken up inside, the connectors may also be corroded or failing, or the metal to metal interface between the connectors and their posts may be bad - e.g. dirty, oily, or corroded,

or a bad earth around the engine - this may be anything from dirt and grease between the starter motor unit and the engine casings and bolts holding it in (unlikely) to the engine earth strap cables, which are bolted to the engine and run across to be bolted to the body of the car (more likely).

Try not to get disheartened with the car - this is a problem which could affect ANY car at any time, it's not specific to your Skoda. I am afraid that you will have to do a bit of digging now. Depends how competent you are - but you need to check all the connections and cabling that I have mentioned, and the unit itself. This means removing it again. However, removing it means that you can also bench-test it...if you get it out and into your garage, you can run some jump leads directly to the motor itself from a battery on the bench, then feed power to the low voltage solenoid unit, and if the motor spins up on the bench (be careful, as it will go bat**** and spin for England so hold onto it ) then you know it's a cabling fault in the car itself.

The second problem that you seem to also have, is with your car's electrical voltages. 11.4, 11.8 and 12 volts is nowehere near the correct voltage. It is generally accepted that a voltage of 12.2 on a battery shows a dead or terminally discharged unit. A healthy battery should show somewhere around 12.7 volts when it is at rest and not being used. THEN once the car is started, you need to see a voltage of at least 13.8 -14.5 volts, which shows that the alternator is working properly and charging your battery. Anything less than 13.8 and I would start to suspect the alternator, or the cabling that connects it to the battery unit.

Now, the voltages that you are seeing on your voltmeter may well be wrong because the voltmeter is dodgy. So, grab yourself a basic voltmeter from somewhere - either buy one or borrow one, and measure those voltages I said across the battery terminals directly, when the car is stopped and when it's running. See if the figure you get are what I said. If not, then you have a charging problem.

One last thing to also check - there is a power distribution terminal block affixed to the top of the battery itself - it looks like a small black box. Pop it open, and have a butchers inside. See all those connections? Firstly make sure that they all look ok - I mean all clean and shiny, with no evidence of damage from heat like melted cables or rainbow coloured connectors. IF it looks ok, then get a 10mm socket and unbolt all the connectors anyway, clean them all up with a bit of wet and dry paper or a wire brush, and bolt them all back down again tightly. This is a known dodgy area on these cars, and any evidence of untoward happenings here may well also cause the symptoms that you describe.

Stick with this fault, it's not a major problem in the grand scheme of things, I know it's getting you down but it's not a hard one to solve. It's not an unusual fault, it happens on lots of older cars not just Skodas, and isn't too difficult to sort out, given a bit of time and patience.

I hope this helps you mate, ask any more questions if need be and I will try to help - and let me know how you get on, ok?!

theo_k · 14 February, 2016

wow! What an answer, thanks for taking the time to write all this.

First things first. I am glad I kept my old starter because even when I took it off, it would still do the tak-tak noise. The new one after yesterday doesnt, it is just dead. So I think it is now gone.

The box on top of the battery is relatively new as I had a melted fuse years ago and changed the whole thing. I checked it yesterday and everything looks nice and clean.

The groundings is the one I am fearing but the only grounding I am aware of is the one on the engine, of the negative cable. I am expecting a couple of extensions for my ratchet and will definitely give it a go, meaning, take it off, a bit of sand paper, and then back in tight.

The cables that might be knackered is something that has crossed my mind and was thinking to look into replacing them, but not just yet, I need to check the other things first.

You have a fair point for the battery as the reading inside the car was showing 11.8 and the green flag guy's instrument was reading around 12.4. So although I as never good with currents and electrics, I will buy one and do some testing.

Getting the starter on a bench etc cant happen unfortunately, no space to start with and these two next weeks we will be busy as heel at home. Which is why I need the car and it is just letting me down now that I need it the most.

pikpilot · 15 February, 2016

Did you replace the alternator cable when the melted fuse box was replaced?

A lash up repair on the old alternator cable, such as just putting on a new crimp, will hide the black wire corrosion further down the cable and will manifest itself later as a reduced alternator charge current to the battery.

Reduced charge current will give all your symptoms, so see if you can borrow a d.c. clip-on ammeter (Hall effect type, not a.c) to check actual charge current.

theo_k · 15 February, 2016

No I didnt. I am thinking of replacing it but I have no idea what I am looking for.

Same goes for the battery cables which I checked out today and there are lots of different sizes and naterials.

Totaly lost.