European auto industry is not happy -

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20181004/ANE/181009817/eu-lawmakers-proposed-co2-target-criticized-by-auto-industry?cciid=email-ane-daily

15 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

European auto industry is not happy -

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20181004/ANE/181009817/eu-lawmakers-proposed-co2-target-criticized-by-auto-industry?cciid=email-ane-daily

 

Are they ever happy? Forever lobbying....

6 minutes ago, xman said:

 

Are they ever happy? Forever lobbying....

Battery is their best bet as a strategy for achieving their target of an average for all cars sold.

ie; if they sell 30-40% of their cars as electric they don’t need to do anything about ICE cars.

They are right about reduced servicing profits.

Edited 4 October, 20187 yr by Ryeman

41 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

Battery is their best bet as a strategy for achieving their target of an average for all cars sold.

ie; if they sell 30-40% of their cars as electric they don’t need to do anything about ICE cars.

They are right about reduced servicing profits.

 

 

don't you believe it.....My Octavia needed its first service after 2 years and it cost me £129, for that I got an oil and filter change etc

 

Now the Nissan Leaf needs a service every 12 months, it costs £149 for the first one. In return for £149 they change the pollen filter, change the screenwash and do a diagnostic check. Apparently, they sometimes wash and vacuum it too (but not always)

 

The major service 12 months later is £199 and for that you get pollen filter, fresh screenwash, diagnostic and a brake fluid change 

 

It is daylight robbery. You can't even take it to an independent garage as none of them is certified to service EVs!  (I have asked).

 

 

10 minutes ago, domhnall said:

 

 

don't you believe it.....My Octavia needed its first service after 2 years and it cost me £129, for that I got an oil and filter change etc

 

Now the Nissan Leaf needs a service every 12 months, it costs £149 for the first one. In return for £149 they change the pollen filter, change the screenwash and do a diagnostic check. Apparently, they sometimes wash and vacuum it too (but not always)

 

The major service 12 months later is £199 and for that you get pollen filter, fresh screenwash, diagnostic and a brake fluid change 

 

It is daylight robbery. You can't even take it to an independent garage as none of them is certified to service EVs!  (I have asked).

 

 

 

What you state above just confirms facts I have been stating for a while to others who believe the marketing hype that an EV car is basically charge & go & servicing is not required....

 

You still have all the servicing & mechanical failures items etc of a conventional ICE car regards to steering, suspension, bodywork, electronics (low volt side), & braking......just you swap the engine air filter, oil change & filter, spark plugs, fuel filter..& belts for major high voltage inspections & diagnostic…& the equipment needed is quite a bit as the voltages are deadly...

 

Edited 4 October, 20187 yr by fabdavrav

21 minutes ago, fabdavrav said:

 

What you state above just confirms facts I have been stating for a while to others who believe the marketing hype that an EV car is basically charge & go & servicing is not required....

 

You still have all the servicing & mechanical failures items etc of a conventional ICE car regards to steering, suspension, bodywork, electronics (low volt side), & braking......just you swap the engine air filter, oil change & filter, spark plugs, fuel filter..& belts for major high voltage inspections & diagnostic…& the equipment needed is quite a bit as the voltages are deadly...

 

 

brakes need minimal attention as they are so rarely used, it's all engine braking. they don't do any high voltage inspection, they just check the state of health of the batter, and I can do that using OBD2 on my phone :(

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, fabdavrav said:

 

You still have all the servicing & mechanical failures items etc of a conventional ICE car regards to steering, suspension, bodywork, electronics (low volt side), & braking......just you swap the engine air filter, oil change & filter, spark plugs, fuel filter..& belts for major high voltage inspections & diagnostic…& the equipment needed is quite a bit as the voltages are deadly...

 

 

Which is less than half of an ICE service, which is mainly Engine oil/filter and ten minute look see around under the car. Brakes suspension and bodywork are more thoroughly check at the MOT.

 

don't get me wrong, the fact that I have zero road tax (compared with £130 for the Octavia) and zero fuel costs still make it a lot cheaper than running the Skoda. But I'll not be buying another Nissan, it is poorly assembled with gaps between panels being of varying sizes and the bonnet is only flush with the rest of the body on one side of the car. It's great to drive, costs nothing to fill   and can out accelerate any petrol /diesel car away from the lights but it's in a different league from Skoda in terms of quality (ie a lower league)

 

4 minutes ago, xman said:

 

Which is less than half of an ICE service, which is mainly Engine oil/filter and ten minute look see around under the car. Brakes suspension and bodywork are more thoroughly check at the MOT.

 

 

not always..I have the VW maintenance manuals for the MK7 Golfs (all versions) & there is stuff under the headings you stated that is checked in the VW serving inspections (not just oil change)…& NOT checked in the MOT.....

 

I know this as I have be re-writing my checklists for the servicing that I do to my car compared to the VW servicing & the new MOT rules....

15 minutes ago, domhnall said:

 

brakes need minimal attention as they are so rarely used, it's all engine braking. they don't do any high voltage inspection, they just check the state of health of the batter, and I can do that using OBD2 on my phone :(

 

 

 

 

the fact the brakes are hardly used means that the pad ears will more likely rust /stick to the caliper brackets..thus causing more long term problems...I have first hand experience of this on ICE cars...& you still need the fluid change every two years.....in fact brakes which are not used much (sign of a good driver in an ICE car)...rust & fail sooner than brakes which are used more....always has been the case with ICE....& will apply to EV...

Edited 4 October, 20187 yr by fabdavrav

Dave, what should be done and what actually gets done.....I could go on.

 

Performance of brakes are not checked at most services, a road test if your lucky which is mainly checking the engine, steering and listening for funny noises.

 

MOT must by law do a thorough inspection of brakes and brake efficiency tests.

14 minutes ago, xman said:

Dave, what should be done and what actually gets done.....I could go on.

 

Performance of brakes are not checked at most services, a road test if your lucky which is mainly checking the engine, steering and listening for funny noises.

 

MOT must by law do a thorough inspection of brakes and brake efficiency tests.

 

 

& MOT is on year three...& infact the gov this year wanted to extend this time frame longer......people are just relying on MOT checks as the push for "long service" intervals has been mass adopted...mainly to bring down the "paper based calcs servicing cost" down for the fleets & those on credit..."look this car only costs x amount to service for 3yrs"....then they ditch it & get new again all on credit....& masses of 3yr old cars are failing the MOT due to this lack of service...

 

...EV & the hype of not having to service it at all (compared to ICE) means there will be more failures come MOT time...."its EV...all it needs is new pollen filter"..is the cry from the people….yeah right.....

Genuine question.

Since i have not done the research myself, 

just drove the cars and love them and know i will not buy or lease one.

Never hung around to ask the 'salespeople'.  Made my excuses and left then washed my hands.

 

BMW i3.

What are the Servicing costs and 'the word on the street on owning one and not just leasing and handing back.?

9 minutes ago, Offski said:

Genuine question.

Since i have not done the research myself, 

just drove the cars and love them and know i will not buy or lease one.

Never hung around to ask the 'salespeople'.  Made my excuses and left then washed my hands.

 

BMW i3.

What are the Servicing costs and 'the word on the street on owning one and not just leasing and handing back.?

 

nice post here on EV forum...

 

https://www.speakev.com/threads/i3-rex-service-cost.68441/

 

First service...for the REX (hybrid)....£399.....& apparently the full EV is only slightly cheaper...& 3yr service pack is £239...

Edited 4 October, 20187 yr by fabdavrav

54 minutes ago, fabdavrav said:

 

 

& MOT is on year three...& infact the gov this year wanted to extend this time frame longer......people are just relying on MOT checks as the push for "long service" intervals has been mass adopted...mainly to bring down the "paper based calcs servicing cost" down for the fleets & those on credit..."look this car only costs x amount to service for 3yrs"....then they ditch it & get new again all on credit....& masses of 3yr old cars are failing the MOT due to this lack of service...

 

...EV & the hype of not having to service it at all (compared to ICE) means there will be more failures come MOT time...."its EV...all it needs is new pollen filter"..is the cry from the people….yeah right.....

 

 

the only time I have seen people saying there is no need to service an EV is when people saw Nissan ramp up the cost from £99 to £149 for a minor service. People were prepared to pay £99 but the overnight hike to £149 has made people decide they are just going to not bother. Their pricing is £199 for petrol, £219 for diesel and £149 for EV. According to nissan it involves 

 

"OIL & OIL FILTER, SUMP PLUG WASHER, SCREENWASH, POLLEN FILTER"

 

So the servicing is the same for all cars but obviously EVs get a discount as there is no oil, filter or sump plug.  I'm told that the service takes around 15 minutes to do. Nissan justify it on the basis that you get a year of roadside assistance worth £95 thrown in. That's all very well but cars come with that anyway for the first three years. 

 

 

 

The companies that have a share pool will soon work out what in particular is so expensive and find a work-around eventually.

Why would you keep going back for the third annual service  when you know the servicing cost is just a rip-off?.

There is no DPF,GPF,ERG cooler valve, cam belt, spark plugs, oil, fuel filters.............  I ‘test drive’ my vehicles every trip.  Brake pads on my cars barely get touched and will last a decade..........pump them at the lights etc.

Will consumer authorities allow a firewall for software update purposes when the vehicle in question is no longer under warranty?.

In Australia I imagine dealership margins will be adjusted instead in order to keep them afloat. (Profits are in service n parts plus used margins of course)

In Australia it won’t take long for the ACCC to ‘investigate’ servicing costs for a mobile solid state device.

The litigious Americas will not be taken for a ride surely.

There is a ride sharing company expanding in Australia and that’s another threat to the structured dealership model with many countries finding their young in big cities don’t need the constant cost involved for the amount of driving they actually do.  You go on holidays and hire one and the e-car will be ‘right up their street’ for their needs.  We are car nuts but that is a declining %.

I don’t see any electric car promotion in any media advertising .......they are very comfortable with the status quo .

We had the old Leaf out here and I didn’t know of it’s existence......zero advertising and I doubt if any dealer had one .....it would have been done to order (without any enthusiasm I suspect) .

Whole industries disappear over time, and more than a century for this one, is time enough already.

 

17 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

What you state above just confirms facts I have been stating for a while to others who believe the marketing hype that an EV car is basically charge & go & servicing is not required....

 

You still have all the servicing & mechanical failures items etc of a conventional ICE car regards to steering, suspension, bodywork, electronics (low volt side), & braking......just you swap the engine air filter, oil change & filter, spark plugs, fuel filter..& belts for major high voltage inspections & diagnostic…& the equipment needed is quite a bit as the voltages are deadly...

 

16 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

...EV & the hype of not having to service it at all (compared to ICE) means there will be more failures come MOT time...."its EV...all it needs is new pollen filter"..is the cry from the people….yeah right.....

 

Nothing needs actual work done in the powertrain part, you said it yourself. Inspection and diagnostics are much cleaner than oil changes, I can do the diagnostic with a £9 dongle.

 

18 hours ago, domhnall said:

don't you believe it.....My Octavia needed its first service after 2 years and it cost me £129, for that I got an oil and filter change etc

 

Now the Nissan Leaf needs a service every 12 months, it costs £149 for the first one. In return for £149 they change the pollen filter, change the screenwash and do a diagnostic check. Apparently, they sometimes wash and vacuum it too (but not always)

 

Is that Skoda service at main dealer though?  It had cost me £95 + £18 last month to do minor service + MOT on my Skoda at a tyre place.

 

Main dealer fixed price according to Skoda website is £169, still more expensive than Nissan EV service main dealer rip-off.

 

I bet service checks that are same as ICE cars and can be done at any garage within an hour. Then do the powertrain diagnostics yourself, Leafspy is a lot more detailed than the battery health Nissan prints out. That's £50 for inspection, £40 for brake fluid change and £15 for pollen filter DIY: £105 major service done. Compared to £279 with a Skoda.

 

 

I used the same £18 MOT offer on my Leaf last week. Passed no issue. I'm on 3 yr PCP with 2 free Nissan servicing, first one in a few weeks. If we do decide to keep the car after PCP, I'll be doing the powertrain myself (check battery health and eyeball the HV cables) for free, then relying on MOT and health checks at my favourite tyre place for everything else.

17 hours ago, domhnall said:

don't get me wrong, the fact that I have zero road tax (compared with £130 for the Octavia) and zero fuel costs still make it a lot cheaper than running the Skoda. But I'll not be buying another Nissan, it is poorly assembled with gaps between panels being of varying sizes and the bonnet is only flush with the rest of the body on one side of the car. It's great to drive, costs nothing to fill   and can out accelerate any petrol /diesel car away from the lights but it's in a different league from Skoda in terms of quality (ie a lower league)

 

Ignore the "Nissan quality". The low fuel cost, instant acceleration and great driving experience seems to be echoed across all EV drivers.

 

There must be something about EV's. Perhaps it's the superior powertrain.  

I drove my Skoda diesel last 2 days, and jumped back to Leaf today, worst cabin, but wow the drive is good: it's smooth, it's instant and it's quiet.

 

Koreans are doing a stellar job on their EV's. Ioniq, Kona and Niro are all brilliant EV. Hyundai EV service costs:

https://www.speakev.com/threads/hyundai-servicing-costs.63425/#post-2031169

I have just been quoted for the electric by a dealer:

Years 1, 3, 5, price 60.90
Years 2, 4 price 107.65

PSA charge like wounded bulls out here for the full 6 year warranty averaging £320/ service.

Oil and a couple of filters and an awful lot of checking........plus, of course, the test drive.

Fixed price servicing simply means fixed high priced servicing...........and they think it’s a ‘feature’ !

I did that on the way there.

When it comes to something like a Leaf, there’s a problem with the laptop to vehicle interface unfortunately 

ME.

 

gotta work on that...........

Edited 5 October, 20187 yr by Ryeman

18 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

 

the fact the brakes are hardly used means that the pad ears will more likely rust /stick to the caliper brackets..thus causing more long term problems...I have first hand experience of this on ICE cars...& you still need the fluid change every two years.....in fact brakes which are not used much (sign of a good driver in an ICE car)...rust & fail sooner than brakes which are used more....always has been the case with ICE....& will apply to EV...

What is rain?

Much too dry and a garage in any case............motoring nirvana.

16 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Ignore the "Nissan quality". The low fuel cost, instant acceleration and great driving experience seems to be echoed across all EV drivers.

 

There must be something about EV's. Perhaps it's the superior powertrain.  

I drove my Skoda diesel last 2 days, and jumped back to Leaf today, worst cabin, but wow the drive is good: it's smooth, it's instant and it's quiet.

 

Koreans are doing a stellar job on their EV's. Ioniq, Kona and Niro are all brilliant EV. Hyundai EV service costs:

https://www.speakev.com/threads/hyundai-servicing-costs.63425/#post-2031169

 

 

 

 

I went into Leaf ownership with my eyes open, fully aware of Rapidgate and certain that it would not affect 99% of my use - the longest drive I ever do is from Livingston to Donegal via Lisburn - all do-able without the number of rapid charges to cause problems. If I do longer trips they are done in the VW camper van. 

 

As you say Leafspy gives a lot more info than a Nissan dealer so you're left with £149 for a pollen filter and screenwash top up. 

 

The driving experience and the cost of driving is fantastic but I am sure any EV would deliver these. The build quality (both materials and the way they are put together) are inferior to Skoda so once Skoda have EVs on the market I'll be ditching Nissan faster than you can say "chademo" ;-)

 

 

34 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

 

Nothing needs actual work done in the powertrain part, you said it yourself. Inspection and diagnostics are much cleaner than oil changes, I can do the diagnostic with a £9 dongle.

 

 

Is that Skoda service at main dealer though?  It had cost me £95 + £18 last month to do minor service + MOT on my Skoda at a tyre place.

 

Main dealer fixed price according to Skoda website is £169, still more expensive than Nissan EV service main dealer rip-off.

 

I bet service checks that are same as ICE cars and can be done at any garage within an hour. Then do the powertrain diagnostics yourself, Leafspy is a lot more detailed than the battery health Nissan prints out. That's £50 for inspection, £40 for brake fluid change and £15 for pollen filter DIY: £105 major service done. Compared to £279 with a Skoda.

 

 

I used the same £18 MOT offer on my Leaf last week. Passed no issue. I'm on 3 yr PCP with 2 free Nissan servicing, first one in a few weeks. If we do decide to keep the car after PCP, I'll be doing the powertrain myself (check battery health and eyeball the HV cables) for free, then relying on MOT and health checks at my favourite tyre place for everything else.

 

 

yeah it was last year but it cost me £129 at a main dealer

 

 

1 minute ago, domhnall said:

 

 

I went into Leaf ownership with my eyes open, fully aware of Rapidgate and certain that it would not affect 99% of my use - the longest drive I ever do is from Livingston to Donegal via Lisburn - all do-able without the number of rapid charges to cause problems. If I do longer trips they are done in the VW camper van. 

 

As you say Leafspy gives a lot more info than a Nissan dealer so you're left with £149 for a pollen filter and screenwash top up. 

 

The driving experience and the cost of driving is fantastic but I am sure any EV would deliver these. The build quality (both materials and the way they are put together) are inferior to Skoda so once Skoda have EVs on the market I'll be ditching Nissan faster than you can say "chademo" ;-)

 

 

Is it that the material appears cheap or there a specific alignment and component faults?.

12 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

Is it that the material appears cheap or there a specific alignment and component faults?.

 

both, the plastics are cheap and hard (you get that in parts of Skoda too of course) some of the things like the 12v socket are pretty flimsy, the rear wiper is something you can wiggle around by hand (ie it isn't tightly fitted)  and the bonnet isn't properly aligned, the gaps between the panels aren't even, the bonnet sits flush with the body on the left but sits about 2mm proud on the right. In short, the materials feel cheaper but they are also poorly assembled in places. The passenger seat belt fitting also vibrates when you drive - annoying in a car with no engine noise to drown out rattles!

 

But as I keep saying, zero fuel costs and zero road tax. I can overlook a few niggles. And then there's the fun of leaving a BMW M3 driver for dead pulling out of a slip road, I never tire of seeing the looks on the faces of boy racers when I floor the leaf. In fact I don't truly floor it as the wheels spin when you give it full throttle. 

 

 

Edited 5 October, 20187 yr by domhnall

9 minutes ago, domhnall said:

 

both, the plastics are cheap and hard (you get that in parts of Skoda too of course) some of the things like the 12v socket are pretty flimsy, the rear wiper is something you can wiggle around by hand (ie it isn't tightly fitted)  and the bonnet isn't properly aligned, the gaps between the panels aren't even, the bonnet sits flush with the body on the left but sits about 2mm proud on the right. In short, the materials feel cheaper but they are also poorly assembled in places. The passenger seat belt fitting also vibrates when you drive - annoying in a car with no engine noise to drown out rattles!

 

But as I keep saying, zero fuel costs and zero road tax. I can overlook a few niggles. And then there's the fun of leaving a BMW M3 driver for dead pulling out of a slip road, I never tire of seeing the looks on the faces of boy racers when I floor the leaf. In fact I don't truly floor it as the wheels spin when you give it full throttle. 

 

 

Hahahaha

The hot jock journos don’t want performance of e-cars highlighted ........they tend to be ‘friendly’ with the dealers and manufacturers of conventional vehicles.

I suspect the law of diminish returns applies to e-cars when it comes to noises in the cabin.

Edited 5 October, 20187 yr by Ryeman