Alignment Issue?

[SuperTurbo]

The subframe is the next thing to be looked at on Monday. I've had the car from new and other than the new shocks and springs which have been ruled out as being an issue there hasn't been any suspension components changed.

[xman]

Whatever bashed the hub housing will have pushed the subframe back on that side. Could have happened while still a demonstrator.

[SuperTurbo]

Frustrating to say the least. Will update again when I know more on monday

Although when you measure from a reference point on the chassis to the same point on both lower arms you get the same measurement there still could be some issue where the arm is twisted so for the sake of 30 quid I will change the NS lower arm.

Edited 20 May, 2016 by SuperTurbo

[2ndskoda]

You will have gathered from my earlier posts that I had misgivings about the progress and diagnostics so far - this has regrettably proved to be the case.

 

Think 'horizontal' - which takes you back to my earlier post about the arm being in some way instrumental in your problem. You will recall that I said to check the inner bushes - which you confirmed as being 'OK'. If a horizontal impact has occurred and the bushes are OK, then the impact received will be transferred to the next linked item, so then you must then look carefully at the area where the bushes/arm attaches to the frame. Be aware that a slight compressive detent to the frame of say just a 1/16" (which will be hardly noticeable) can cause a misalignment of at least 10/15mm at the outer end of the arm.

 

Before buying an arm, my next move would be to take up XMans advice - thus " I read on another thread the subframe mounts to the body with bolts through slotted holes in the subframe, so these need to be loosened and the the frame re-positioned". (I would word this as correctly aligned.)

This action makes good mechanical practice. If you cannot resolve this - you need full professional  advice so that you do not throw additional money following guesswork theories. (I hope that does not sound offensive in any way - it isn't meant to)

As a point of interest, some VRS steering problems have been overcome by relaxing the subframe to allow it to hang and re-align/locate. Then a full hunter set up has a more meaningful result. Please do not spend money on parts until you have checked out the basics first. Unfortunately, mechanics are no longer trained to the standard of years ago, the discipline today is to use diagnostic equipment to trace electrical problems etc. The mechanical side is sadly neglected, so most are chunk changers with no real appreciation of what they are dealing with.

Having made that comment I'd best leave the country for a while to avoid the flood of protests that will come!!!!

Good luck with your problem - keep us all in the picture.

[SuperTurbo]

Thanks for your input 2ndskoda. You've put a logical view on the whole thing and what you've mentioned does make perfect sense, and don't worry no offense taken at all

Il be sure to update when I know more.

In terms of realigning the subframe, is there a correct way of doing so? What I'm getting at is as I understand it could be adjusted to make the problem disappear I don't simply want to be masking the fault.

For example (don't for a second think I've considered this) if I removed the lower arm and distorted it horizontally towards the front of the car, this would remove the arch gap but clearly not fix the problem.

I hope you see what I'm getting at?

Edited 21 May, 2016 by SuperTurbo

[xman]

Dont go distorting anything!

I recall watchiing a mechanic who had changed the console bushes moving the front console/subframe on my mk1. He loosened off maybe 4 bolts located directly under the central frame and grabbed the frame and pushed/shuffled it about, stopping to look at either side a number of times. The car was up in the air on a ramp, and that is absolutely necessary in order to do the job, you cant do it on the ground or with a wheel(s) suspended.

IIRC isnt the front subframe an alloy casting?? In that case, that cant distort without breaking. I may be wrong.

Edited 21 May, 2016 by xman

[2ndskoda]

You will appreciate that a diagnosis via forum correspondence is nigh impossible. The only way forward is to get the car up in the air for a proper underside appraisal, (as xman correctly points out "you cant do it on the ground or with a wheel(s) suspended" and get the opinion of a fully qualified person to go through all the possibilities with you. 

[xman]

I forgot to mention the subframe bolts are stretch bolts and need to be replaced, the mechanic attempted to reuse them and a few miles later, bang and one had snapped and the subframe flapping and banging.

[rum4mo]

Not that it solves anything, but, the subframe is steel and has aluminium parts at each end, more importantly, the reason to move the subframe about should be to correct the four wheel alignment, ie have the front wheels "square" to the fixed rear ones - which will also be examined for damage, also to allow the camber to be "equal" side to side and caster in spec.  After meeting all these requirements, I'd expect that you would find that the front wheel/arch spacing to be near enough the same.

 

As for the need or quality of training for modern mechanics, if there is any problem there I'd think that it is down to the general belief that software can cure all - and that delusion is carried across the whole engineering spectrum!

Edited 21 May, 2016 by rum4mo

[SuperTurbo]

That makes perfect sense. From. Your guys reasoning it seems perfectly logical that the subframe is out of alignment somewhere. Is this something that could potentially have been at fault since the car was new and only made noticeable by eye because of the lower ET wheels which would accentuate the issue by extending the off angle axis?

Or is this more likely to have been cause by an impact? Bearing in mind that the car has never been in an accident.

In regards to removing and realigning the subframe would anyone have quantities and part numbers of the required bolts that need to be replaced when re fitting?

[rum4mo]

A proper alignment place would probably include the moving of the cross member in their list of things to do - which would be needed to get the car running true.

[SuperTurbo]

Well the problem now appears to be sorted. I really haven't been wise in this and ended up spending a lot of money unnecessarily when the solution was quite simple.

Live and learn I guess.

The issue was due to the stretch bolts that secure the subframe being no where near the correct torque which means they hadn't taken properly, this has then cause one side or the subframe to shift back.

Dangerous when you think about it....

Removed and replaced all bolts and had everything correctly aligned and the car is now as it should be.

The next question lies to how this happened in the first place. With no visible damage to the various suspension components it seems unlikely the subframe being lose is down to pothole impact, so does that mean it wasn't installed correctly from the factory and then the lower offset wheels have made the issue more visible for me to notice it?

[xman]

Its been knocked and that has stretched the bolts, or its had work done at some time maybe while still a demonstrator.

Or, more likely, someone loosened and retightened them during an alignment. Once stretched, they cannot be reused, I bet alignment people ignore that fact.

Glad you got it sorted.

[2ndskoda]

Brilliant, it had to be a simple explanation in the end. Dont forget the magic words - 'think horizontal'. With the best will in the world, it has to be said you need to consider a different car doctor from the one who spent £180 for you.

 

Dont forget that there is still a need to get this car to a hunter machine for a final check.

Glad its sorted.

[SuperTurbo]

2ndskoda you are 100% right

The guy doing the work was someone I know but my view on his ability has changed completely and I will be going elsewhere from now on. At the end of the day as a mechanic he should be able to advise the best action to take and surely that would be the most obvious/cheapest options and then go from there.

The car is currently on a hunter machine as we speak.

Edited 24 May, 2016 by SuperTurbo