So where is the quality control? Not being funny but offering a balanced view to people who seem to be 100% in agreement doesn't really do much.

I think many of us understand why it may be done when applied properly (and for the reasons specified), but many of us are scratching our heads because often there was no problem to fix, and in the short term it makes a horrible mess and in the long term the benefits are highly debatable.

I'm not saying the responsibility is on your shoulders as an individual (and I'm not trying to offend you at all) but if Civil Engineers are aware of bad practice and poor standards of application why doesn't something get done about it?

The conspiracy theorist in me (only a small part of me I admit) still thinks it's an insidious way of calming traffic and putting people off driving. Seems like many ideas this causes more problems than it solves.

 

Where is the quality control - well that's the question isn't it - often there isn't any as contracts have moved towards no independant supervisor being on site - so the 'quality control' (or what there is) is done directly by the contractor who has a vested interest.  Also specifications can be 'end product' ones which, with no final inspections taking place (Highway Authorities are doing well if they have the resources to inspect 1 in 40 reinstatements these days) means the end product is never actually checked...

 

Why is nothing done about it?  you tell me - blame the public sector involved and those I mentioned earlier that either can't be bothered or don't have the resources / finances to chase issues through contractually and legally.   I can write the best spec in the world but if no one on site is inspecting it is carried out then it doesn't count for anything...   Also look towards the public sector procurement process - a spec is produced and tendered and, whilst it might be supposedly weighted at 80% quality and 20% cost when you do the maths the actual calculation of scoring inevitably means the cheapest wins...   and I've yet to come across a highways authority (or even public sector generally) procurement team that will take a more expensive tender over a cheap one - even if that means the latter doesn't last - so you get into this vicious circle that to win the work and stay in business you get a bad job...

 

It would be cheaper, safer and all round better if they just didnt touch them at all. 

 

Sometimes they're nice new tarmaced roads they're spoiling. 

 

not necessarily so - as I mentioned earlier it is all about reducing skid resistance (and also sealing the surface to prevent water ingress).  Surface micro-texture and grip levels cannot be seen with the naked eye - so what might look to be a great surface to you can have minimal skid resistance and be classed as dangerous.  The highway authorities have a public duty to maintain a minimal level of surface texture and skid resistance so they surface dress...   if they didn't and someone was injured you know full well the ambulance chasing solicitors would be after them...   so to some degree that is a driver as well.

 

Also I've seen newly tarmacked roads fail on skid resistance and surface texture due to bad or unlucky laying.  Ideally you'd rip it up and start again but that's not always possible.

 

Cheers skomaz, no offence intended from my direction either. Nothing wrong with a vested interest, as I said above.

 

From the posts in between, clearly the feeling in this totally unscientific survey is that it's a regarded as a cheap quick fix, used by the "powers that be" as something "being seen to be done", with the collusion of everyone involved (I appreciate that there will be some - such as yourself - being unfairly "tarred with the same brush" - sorry!).

 

I'm off to sample the roads of the north east over the next week - let's see how they compare to Merseyside and Sheffield, both of which I know very well.

 

 

 

Anyone remember the days when Belgian pave was regarded as the worst road surface in Europe?

 

No offence taken!

 

and as for Sheffield - this is typical of the roads round me...   there's pretty much no original surface left and it is a busy road (just not in a 'favoured' part of the Labour run city...   but that's for another thread)

Here is a main road with the long strips of smooth tar at surface which are an utter pain, flies everywhere in heat and gives way under you, or is slick and slippery as hell in the wet :( 

 

I've driven that route before. My mum lived on Skye for a while and we drove up to see her. We did the Mallaig ferry on the way there as it was a nice route and fun to go on the ferry. Lovely roads... but was only in my Felicia L&K with 3 adults on board so it was a steady drive!

 

I've driven that one as well - in a Fabia 1.9 TDI Estate for a wedding with a 6 month old in the back...

I don't know if anyone else has seen the response from the government regarding the above linked petition? 

 

 

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Stop councils using surface/gravel dressing to maintain roads”.

Government responded:

This Government takes the issue of road safety and the condition of the local road network very seriously. 

The Government is allocating more than £6bn in this Parliament to highway authorities in England, outside London, for highways maintenance.

For local roads, which are the statutory responsibility of local highway authorities, it is for each individual authority to decide on the most suitable materials to be used for resurfacing and repair works, based upon their local knowledge and circumstances.

Surface Dressing can be an efficient and effective method for routine maintenance of road surfaces. Once authorities have repaired any defects on the road, they spray the existing surface with a thin layer of hot bitumen binder, then spread stone chippings over the bitumen and use a heavy roller so that the bitumen sticks them to the existing surface. 

This type of dressing forms a water-resistant protective layer which makes the road less slippery (more skid-resistant) and extends its life by preventing water (and then ice) getting in to cause cracks and eventually potholes. 

Usually after a week the highway authority will return to sweep the road to remove most loose chippings. However, some loose chippings will remain until road vehicles press them into the bitumen.

Department for Transport

 

 

 

I don't think it'll be changing soon then! Clowns. 

I can't remember when I've last seen a road down sarf' finished with loose chippings.

 

Is it being resorted to because its cheap and cheerful and doesn't require the use of a surface laying machine i.e. all they need is  a low back for tar spraying and chipings,  and some labour with shovels and rakes.

 

If its being used today, then it should be restricted to low traffic, low speed roads, such as residential streets - as was the case round here. In those days, it was the kids coming out of school that were at risk, falling over on the ragged, loose surfaces of the chippings and skinning their knees. Better that than a major road smash-up caused by projectile damage to windscreens.

 

About 10 years ago, when the money was about, there was spate, down here, of coating  the approaches to zebra crossings and traffic light controlled junctions with a thin micro crystalline high friction coating - presumably to aid braking. Since the first time of doing this there hasn't been much in the way of expansion of the coverage. Could this, suitably adapted by reducing the density of the particles, and be a safer subsititute for the dodgy sections of main country roads ?

 

Nick

Edited 13 August, 20169 yr by Clunkclick

​Urgh, hate it when my local council does this.  Perfectly good (and grippy) roads turned into rally gravel stages with poor grip, just for a bit of cost cutting. 

We've had roads that clearly need resurfacing (since they are full of pot holes and cracks) just have gravel dumped on them.  The pot holes fill up with the gravel so look like they've been fixed, but a few days later the gravel has washed out and it's the same as before. The problem now is they are harder to spot and you spend even more time looking down at the road and not in front of you.   Using cars to compress the gravel into the road is another cheap idea to slow people down for a couple of days.  If they insist on this method of "improving" the road, just use a proper roller.

 

Even when they do bother to resurface a road they seem to make it worse.  Some of the old sections of dual carriageway round here were recently resurfaced.  They weren't too bad before- the odd crack or bumpy bit- but nothing dangerous.  However, it's like they've just put tarmac on top of the existing surface as there are far more bumps than before!  

I agree with you that many of the repairs nowadays are "Just going through the motions" - for public consumption.

I came across and reported, after a period of no repair action, a section of local main road which ran through a low-lying area adjoining a local river and reservoir. The road, which is a 40 Mph rush-hour commuting route and bus-route, had serious carriageway subsidence and slump on one side only, including a severe small slump with an unbroken tarmac covering.

Within a couple of months of my report, action was taken and it appeared to have been fully repaired, including a new top-coating of tarmac.

On re-visiting the road, month later, the severe small slump had become visible again, in the same place. Obviously, they hadn't repaired the foundation and just put a thick tarmac coating over.

Logic and experience tells us that the works officer in the responsible authority couldn't have formally sanctioned this methodology without creating criminal and civil liability big time. So, is this the contractor doing the thing he thinks he needs to do to retain the contract ?

This is a route used by ambulances, a bus route and heavy vehicles.

You can't trust any of them to do a proper job nowadays.

And there is all this under spending on infra-structure and so much money about that interest base rate is .0.25%, yet when push comes to political shove HMG can instantly find £4 billion to maintain subsidies to farmers etc previously paid by the EU before Brexit. Talk about long- term Gerrymandering.

A good reason for everybody to operate forward facing car cams - not just the prestige brigade

Nick

Edited 13 August, 20169 yr by Clunkclick

Re the quote from fabiamk2SE - the final two sentences say it all.

 

"USUALLY...the authority will return to sweep...MOST loose chippings" (my capitals)

 

and

 

"some loose chippings will remain until vehicles press them in." 

 

 

So drivers and OUR CARS are part of the process. Why not also give us buckets of white paint to put the lane markings back???

 

You couldn't make it up. Condescending barsteward, whoever wrote that. They just don't give a flying f***.

 

 

Re the quote from fabiamk2SE - the final two sentences say it all.

 

"USUALLY...the authority will return to sweep...MOST loose chippings" (my capitals)

 

and

 

"some loose chippings will remain until vehicles press them in." 

 

 

So drivers and OUR CARS are part of the process. Why not also give us buckets of white paint to put the lane markings back???

 

You couldn't make it up. Condescending barsteward, whoever wrote that. They just don't give a flying f***.

 

 

Nothing presses them in. They're spread over the road at 4pm on a friday evening then they **** off. 

 

Leaving everybodys cars to be damaged, and crashes to happen. 

 

Its lovely. 

Well I came back from a drive yesterday on a road that had just been surface dressed.

One section of road was as you'd expect dreadful.

Just over the county order, however they had dressed another section of the same road.

This had clearly been rolled, there were no chippings, it was all swept and had a nice surface to it.

No stones flying up, no anything.

This section had not lines down it or patches where the gravel was missing (Unlike the other section) and they've both been done at about the same time.

It's been a week since the road near me was 'dressed'

 

I have to say, you can tell they have ran the road sweeper up and down it a few times, in fairness it is a lot better than when it was first laid and I heard no stones being chucked up into my wheel arches last time I used it.

 

But as expected, the hot weather + buses using the road has caused bits of it to be chewed up and tram lines to be left.

 

What is wrong with normal tarmac??

It's been a week since the road near me was 'dressed'

 

I have to say, you can tell they have ran the road sweeper up and down it a few times, in fairness it is a lot better than when it was first laid and I heard no stones being chucked up into my wheel arches last time I used it.

 

But as expected, the hot weather + buses using the road has caused bits of it to be chewed up and tram lines to be left.

 

What is wrong with normal tarmac??

 

The 3 bits of main road I use daily that were done around same time are shocking still. They decided this time to cone off the centre of the road and leave advised 10mph signs for over a week.... lines being painted on top of what was still a layer of loose gravel yesterday on my way home from work. Well I say being painted, I passed the line painting lorry waiting there to go at 8am and he was still parked there not a thing done at noon. A minor road I use which has been done is 2 weeks in and you'd think they only did it yesterday, having to avoid it now it's unreal. 

I don't get how we can't make a road last for more than a few months, yet you can go to mountainous parts of Europe where they get snow/ice a lot, and they have perfect road surfaces (Norway and Sweden are good for this), yet we can't even make a road survive a bit of frost!

 

We can make a road last for much longer than a few months, and to a much better standard, it's not that hard (so I hear). However, you're missing the point......roads that need high levels of maintenance, require high levels of investment. As a company that maintains the roads "on behalf of The Highways Agency", it's their job to make as much money as possible, not provide the best service possible.

 

As with most of these things, it all comes down to money. Build it as cheap as possible, maintain it as cheaply as possible, as often as possible, but charge as much as possible to do it.

 

Ching ching ching ££££££££££££££££

In Northern Ireland political disagreements over such things as the Welfare Reform have resulted in financial penalties which has had the knock on effect of budget cuts. Within the Department looking after the roads that has meant No money for structural maintenance of roads or routine activities over the past few years. Grass cutting programmes, gully emptying etc have all stopped and only the worst potholes are being repaired. Due to this Contractors have had to lay of staff. On top of this the Civil Service is downsizing and Transport NI (Roads Authority) have lost about 25% of staff.

 

It used to be that rural roads (low traffic, low importance) were surface dressed on a rolling programme. Now due to a complete lack of funds it seems the rural roads will be left and what ever money is about will be used on the main arterial routes of greater significance. It's worrying that surface dressing will be seen as the solution to keep these roads maintained. 

 

So we are in the position in this country that we do not have the funds to maintain our roads nor the staff to supervise the works on the ground should any money become available.

 

The only way to get rid of surface dressing or to look into some improvement is if it comes from the very top down and there is a joined up approach between all the Roads Authorities.

 

I don't like the side effects of surface dressing, but I'm even less of a fan of Jet Patching. Now that is cheap and nasty!