Skoda Estelle rebuilt engine's horrible clanking noise

[Aram]

Hello from Havana, Cuba!

 

This is my first post in this forum, but have being visiting and reading it a lot in the past. I have a few problems rebuilding this engine, I would like you see your opinions. Thanks in advance!

 

So...bought a Skoda Estelle 120L last year. Here a very few got imported in the 80s and new parts are inexistent. The engine was kinda fine, a bit low on rings, but ok. Then a month ago it got fever overheated like hell to almost 120C, so I parked it and started disassembling the engine. From cylinder 3 towards 4 and that end of the block, it got so much soil where the water runs, and so packed that it was a miracle the engine didn't melt. It seems the previous owner used tap water, and didn't bother to put any kind of filters (air/gas/oil).

 

Anyway I disassembled the engine by pieces and after a hell of clean up I installed things again. I can't find new parts, but a few used but in good conditions: put different cylinder liners, piston rings, rockers, 2 valves and gaskets. Everything else is what it had, pistons, bearings, connecting rods, etc. Put everything back again:

 

a) the pistons moved up and down their respective cylinders, by bare hand by turning the crankshaft pulley. Just a bit hard when the pistons were at their top point

put the head without torque, pistons moved ok

c) torque the heads, then I can't turn the shaft by hand but with a wrench

d) head without rockers, torqued, used the starter and it furiously cranked the thing

 

Then packed up and tried to crank, and problems arised:

 

a) at first it didn't started, it cranked but no start. I un-torqued the head, torqued it back and the engine crank was more smooth

without the rockers, just the head with springs, and without the spark plugs, the engine turns ok

c) as soon as I add the rockers, their commanding rods and no plugs yet, the engine turns a bit heavier but still ok

 

However, when packing everything up, everything tight, correctly calibrated valves, etc, it cranks but with difficulties (maybe the starter's fault) and starts but then the new problem: an horrible clanking noise.

 

It sounds like when an engine is out of ignition spark timing and you gas it suddenly, clank clank clank. Like if you hit an oil filled oil sump with a metal rod, clank clank clank. I can't really tell if the noise is from top or bottom.

 

If I crank without the valves stuff it doesnt sound like this. If I crank with the valves stuff it obviously starts but with that sound.

 

I don't see stick valves, I did a valves job, non are bent, rods are not bent, plunges doesn't seize in their holes. The only thing suspicious I see, maybe not problematic, is that the two valves I put are slightly tall than the rest. Over the springs, they are say 4 or 5 mm taller than the rest. I calibrate them, and realized their adjusting screws are almost at their extremes.

 

Could it be that those valves are hitting the pistons?

 

Any ideas?

 

 

[KenONeill]

Have you got the push rods (you call them "commanding rods", which I guess is an automated translation from Spanish?) in the correct order?

[MotorsportFinland]

Install rockers and everything else exept those two pushrods conjunction with longer valves. Then try to turn the engine without spark plugs. If it moves freely you have problem with the operation angles between rocker and valve.

[daverapid]

Have you removed and refitted the timing chain?

[Aram]

Well, mistery solved: I didn't want to disturb the timing, so in my clean up project I didn't clean inside there. For some obscure reason the linkage between the oil pump shaft and the distributor pinion "jumped" out of its position. The pump never seems to worked in my cranking attempts (oil filter is dry!) So today I took the engine out of the car and did what I initially didn't want: complete disassemble. What I found was that, maybe because the oil pump fault, **all** the big ends were loose! I don't mean their nuts, but they got more play than a casino in Las Vegas heheheh. I guess they got grinded off by the crankshaft because no oil. I checked the tip of the oil pump shaft and it is not broken, however I don't know how it got disengaged. Oh, well, this engine is over abused by its previous owners, so I will rebuilt it from zero.

Edited 19 November, 2016 by Aram

[Aram]

Have you got the push rods (you call them "commanding rods", which I guess is an automated translation from Spanish?) in the correct order?

 

it is more "spanglish"

[Aram]

Some before and after pictures, but now I will rebuild it completly anyway.

 

The reason of my engine's fever

 

 

The block walls are damaged because the previous guys used metal rods to extract the liners by levering against the block!

 

 

 

 

I had to literally use a chisel and hammer to get all the carbon from the chambers. #3 got so much carbon than the index finger couldn't get into the port.

 

 

This engine has some valves like the one in the right, but the seats in the head are not for these....

 

[daverapid]

That block with its enormous crack is scrap!

[Aram]

That block with its enormous crack is scrap!

 

Yeah :( but can't find one easily not to say legalize it here may be almost impossible, so I will need to send it to a guy that rebuilds them by filling with aluminum welds.

[pinjon]

_{I did rebuilt some very old engines but never saw soo much dirt in it!}

 

_{Good job! keep up with it. :-)}

Edited 21 November, 2016 by pinjon

[KenONeill]

it is more "spanglish"

Either way your English is better than my Spanish (but automated or literal translation from Spanish to English does throw up stuff like that sometimes).

[Aram]

That block with its enormous crack is scrap!

 

Let's call this "the best of British" !!! Today I got another block! Ok, it is not new but is like 99% better than the one the car had (and in the pics). It happens I had it buried in the maze of (used) parts I have in my trash room, inherited it when I purchase the car, among a ton of other parts. Ugly and dirty as hell. Today had to use a screwdriver to stab through layers of crap, especially the oil filter side. I’ll bath it in acid and then see what can be done. I’ll post pic soon

 

This seems then to be a large post!

[KenONeill]

Acid!!? Can't you get Gunk (UK trade name I admit) or similar degreaser? Oh and whatever you do don't use caustic soda, because that literally will dissolve the block!

[Aram]

Acid!!? Can't you get Gunk (UK trade name I admit) or similar degreaser? Oh and whatever you do don't use caustic soda, because that literally will dissolve the block!

 

Ah, I use soft acid (we don't have access to high concentration acids here) like those used for cleaning kitchen stuff...it is not that strong, and they water it down a lot so it is kinda safe. I won't cut over thick layers of dirt, that's why I need to scrap the more I can first. Then I pour it over the pieces and wait a few mins, and use a thick paint brush to remove the resulting nasty glop. Normally I would mix it with kerosene to soften the dirt. In fact, it may need a few tries, like I see now inside in the cam followers area. Then I use lots of water to wash all out. It won't damage the pieces, not enough power. I don't need to use gloves, although sometimes it pinches the hands a bit. We call it here "kitchen decruster" and if the part is too dirty, it would deplete quite fast, needing to change it and add more.

[Aram]

I need to remove a lot of steel bolts from an aluminum engine block, they feel like "welded" in there because the level of rust. Just turning them would crack the part, or break the bolts. I wonder what's the best/fast way to remove them, with minimum parts damage. I know:

• Use a propane torch to heat the bolt
• Cut the bolt at almost surface level then
  • Do a cone drill and a cone bolt tip, arc weld the bolt
  • Do a passing-through drill almost the bolt diameter to make it weak, then pass another threader, and then the one the bolt was
• Use salted water electrolysis to dissolve steel

Then finish unscrew it by any means

My experience:

• Propane torch, very few tries, but see they need a lot of heat
• Arc welding a bolt on top: a few times, but difficult to control for small bolts
• Drill to make it weak and thread: needs a lot of work, basically re thread with new bigger sizes on each try...first M10, then M8, then M6.

Electrolysis...I'll put this aside as it is "special" and unorthodox for this, I believe. Once upon a time I "had" a long-term hobby making art blades, swords, knives and used it for engraving. Now the hobby time is going to the the darn car Anyway, it eats steel "fast", but need prep work. Salted water electrolysis won't eat aluminum.

 

Any other ideas? I need to extract about 15 old rusted bolts...

[KenONeill]

Ok, I'm a bit reassured about the acid, at least presuming you mean "dilute acid" (a separate thing to "strong acid" or "weak acid"). Having said that, dilute sulphuric acid + heat => concentrated sulphuric acid.

 

As to the bolt extraction, again I'll have to use the UK trade name, but "PlusGas" is a pretty good dismantling lubricant. Other ideas include put an nut on a stud, and then hit it with a hammer which sometimes breaks a differential corrosion bond, or try working it both ways instead of just undoing it.

[Aram]

Ok, all studs are out now. I used kerosene to damp where they sit, then a fat propane torch to apply heat. Curiously, non of them needed too much heat and came out nicely, by using a nut and "counter nut" to wrench them out. Only the one that is next to the oil sump, where the exhaust silencer fits, was really rebel and gave me some headaches. But the rest came alone nice, including the flat head screws from the oil system, near the camshaft's hole. I took all nuts/bolts/studs from the block, so I can clean all the passages just right. I will then order all of them (and the missing ones) to a lathe guy.

Edited 25 November, 2016 by Aram

[Aram]

I have a question: is it possible to install a different starter using a supporting base that could be bolted to the engine, not welded? Let me explain: there are very few rear engine Skodas here, and there are more the old model than the one I have (Estelle or 120). The problem everyone has is the starter, impossible to get a new one, so we all run them fixed many times. When they start to seize, we send it to guys that make new brass bearings, adapt new carbons, etc. But the rest of the parts, like the bendix, are something we can't replace (easily). I have two of them, the one in the car I had to fix twice and the latest adaptation I did was to put it a solenoid from a Moscovich Aleko. I needed to make a steel separator washer and adapt a bit the trigger mechanism. Works nice, but the starter is still the one that came with the car.

 

So...now that I took the engine out and in pieces, I realized I may be able to adapt other starter and I would only if I can put it one that turns "normal", not counterclockwise like this one. My first impulse was to think about Lada starters. We have Lada parts, everything and everywhere. So I can get a new starter in any gas station just around the corner.

 

But the question is about installing it (even more complex than the number of teeths in bendix). It will need to be towards the block and not towards the gearbox. Any of the sides are ok, but I think in the same size the original one is can be possible, unless I see a conflic with the gas pump. This is just an idea.

 

So...what if I design and construct a metal support for the starter and somehow attach it to the block? I could drill the block, thread it to secure the support? I mean using bolts because I don't know anyone that can weld aluminum....

 

Any ideas?

 

Thinking it better...I could make the mount with 4mm steel plate or whatever, then file both the engine and gearbox surfaces that gets together when assembling them, to accomodate the plate in between and secure it with the same bolts they have...

Edited 25 November, 2016 by Aram

[Aram]

On the sandwich mount idea, I did some quick graphics to illustrate better what I mean. Any comments are welcome!

 

Both facing surfaces from the gearbox and the engine could be debasted to be able to insert the support mount...

 

If the flywheel vs bendix is too much a headache, I could put the same Lada flywheel too, since it looks much like the Skoda, and besides, it will give me a bonus: I can use the Lada clutch disk and pressure disk. (Again, no new parts for the Skoda here) It depends on other many things tho, so it will be another project  

 

 

 

 

I can use the the stub for hanging the exhaust silencer, and convert the existent bolt on top to a stub (dark gray circles).

Then add another two passing through bolts to secure the mount better.

 

 

 

The thing would look like this, in some quick 3D

 

[KenONeill]

Can't advise you on the sandwich plate (that needs practical experience, and access to the installation).

 

Regarding the Lada flywheel and clutch, you'll need to check the bolt spacings and centre size (although that could be bored or sleeved fairly easily), and that the clutch splines match up with those on the crank.

 

Also, I'd suggest making good engineering drawings of your adapters since it looks like your friends may want/need to do this too.

[Aram]

Can't advise you on the sandwich plate (that needs practical experience, and access to the installation).

 

Regarding the Lada flywheel and clutch, you'll need to check the bolt spacings and centre size (although that could be bored or sleeved fairly easily), and that the clutch splines match up with those on the crank.

 

Also, I'd suggest making good engineering drawings of your adapters since it looks like your friends may want/need to do this too.

 

Yes, of course, I will need to do "real" schematics for this. I only need the lathe guys in the case I need to make something to fit the Lada flywheel. For the adaptor, I can do myself, no problem with that. Installation is fine too, remember I have the engine out of the car. I fact, I have 2 blocks and 2 gearboxes...I can design, make and test in those that won't get into the car, just in case I screw something beyond repair heheheh...

 

 

I need to check a few things, for instance I know I can install another clucth release bearing, like from a Lada and sleeve its inside as needed. However I need to check if a Lada clutch friction disk somehow matches the gearbox shaft. I'm not concerned about the friction disk since if the diameters matches, I can use the Skoda one, which I have a lot of them just needing new friction rings. Maybe I can use the Lada flywheel and pressure plate, with Skoda friction disk Again, it needs some hours measuring things.

 

So as you see I have a few adaptations that ideally I would love to do:

• Different starter (Lada)
• Different clutch (Lada)
• "Normal" screwable oil filter, not the old canister one. For this I will post new questions, things I don't understand from the manual.

 

And then the terror

 

• Transmission shafts. This model uses keys in the hubs...horrible, they are always messing around, no matter I have made them twice, first with mild steel and then with hardened steel. I want to see if I can adapt either CV joints, yes I know I need to instal Y arms (chinese Geely, Daewoo Tico, maybe Peugeots) or keep it stiff but use Lada transmission shafts. I knew a Skoda guy that knows another Skoda guy who made that . I did a little adaptation in there, using Lada rear hubs bearings and they work well. I couldn't find double track bearings here as used by this Skoda.

 

Lots in the plate folks slow but certain.

Edited 25 November, 2016 by Aram

[MotorsportFinland]

Lada flywheel and clutch assembly will not fit inside Skoda bellhousing without major modifications.

Why not use the Lada engine as a unit? Make an adaptor plate between engine and gearbox, extend the clutch shaft and bolt the new starter on the adaptor plate.

If you want to use Skoda engine and make a use of Lada starter, I suggest you to make a sandwich plate as pictured. Adapt the flywheel to accept Lada starter by moving the starter ring to the opposite side of flywheel. If the flywheel friction surface is deeply cracked (in most cases it is), you might consider to make a new flywheel out of blank steel plate.

What is your original friction plate size? 180mm or 190mm? If 180mm, you could use Wartburg and if 190mm, you might use Lada 2108 friction material if those are easily available?

[felicia16v]

how easy are felicia parts to get?

with a little modification you could fit the felicia starter ring, and the felicia reduction gear starter motor. it just needs a bit of filing off the starter mount as the felicia bendix is smaller so the motor has to be moved closer in.

[Aram]

Lada flywheel and clutch assembly will not fit inside Skoda bellhousing without major modifications.

 

Thank you for this I guessed it was to be a problem because the size. Classic Ladas (which we call them "the cuban car", so many of them here) have 200mm clutch. I haven't measured the engine butt or the gearbox yet but I see what you mean.

 

If you want to use Skoda engine and make a use of Lada starter, I suggest you to make a sandwich plate as pictured. Adapt the flywheel to accept Lada starter by moving the starter ring to the opposite side of flywheel. If the flywheel friction surface is deeply cracked (in most cases it is), you might consider to make a new flywheel out of blank steel plate.

 

Thing is, would the Skoda ring have the same teeth design and space than those from a Lada? I mean, would the Lada starter and Skoda flywheel ring's teeth match? If so, that will be super! The flywheel I took from the car has some grooves in the friction track, but I think I have one in my pile of trash that may be better.

 

Why not use the Lada engine as a unit? Make an adaptor plate between engine and gearbox, extend the clutch shaft and bolt the new starter on the adaptor plate.

 

That's plan B...it requires some money I need to pump. Plan A is to rebuild and get wheels back, then I will work on a new engine project. Probably get a modern one with front transmission (engine + gearbox) and adapt it in the front. But it requires some fine woodwork I can't do at the moment. Here, an used Lada engine is for ~$400 USD, 4th speed gearbox for $60 USD and the 5 speed one for $250 USD.

 

What is your original friction plate size? 180mm or 190mm? If 180mm, you could use Wartburg and if 190mm, you might use Lada 2108 friction material if those are easily available?

 

I believe it is 190mm. Wartburgs are way rare here, I have seen if 3 in my life is too much. Lada: I can find everything.

[Aram]

how easy are felicia parts to get?

with a little modification you could fit the felicia starter ring, and the felicia reduction gear starter motor. it just needs a bit of filing off the starter mount as the felicia bendix is smaller so the motor has to be moved closer in.

 

Felicia models didn't hit here. Old ones we got: Octavia, ugly as hell then the 100s and 120s (very few) Again, the main import here was Lada, second Moskvich, then perhaps Volga.