hi all members i asked if replacing 1.3 gearbox with 1.6 does it fit or cause harm to the motor and many thx

Yes it will fit and work no problem but may be a bit high geared for the 1.3

To push it a bit more, would the 1.9 gearbox fit to the 1.3 engine? Or perhaps the starter wouldn't fit?

To push it a bit more, would the 1.9 gearbox fit to the 1.3 engine? Or perhaps the starter wouldn't fit?

You are not pushing anything by fitting a Diesel gearbox on a petrol engine. On the contrary. It's not like 1.6 is better and 1.9 is way better (aka 'bigger is better'). The car will have poor performance. Read this topic.

yes the 1.9d box will fit with a couple of studs changing over, the diff is stronger but the gearing will be far too high for a 1.3 with no torque not sure what you are trying to achieve really tho.

Assuming the engine would get renovated and tuned for around 120Nm and 68kW of power (instead of stock 50kW), the 1.9d gearing would mean that in 5th gear at 3000rpm the car would be doing about 119 kmph, and even without engine tuning i assume that that could potentially lower the fuel consumption a bit, and most importantly lower the noise level inside the car.

I know that the car would become "lazy" on the same gears, but i guess nothing would stop me from just using the lower gears up to a higher speed.

Additionally i got 250 000 km done on my 1.3 gearbox, and was thinking about getting a less worn out one, and renovating it to as "new" state as possible.

 

I guess it's worth noting that the 1.9 engine had lower power output than the 1.3 mpi, although it did have 18Nm more.

It's also worth noting that the 1.3 spi engines even lower Nm were paired with a gearbox that had the same main gear ratio as the 1.6 gearbox.

 

The most important thing is that this is a plug and play replacement.

The 1.9 diesel engines have a larger diameter clutch, in order to better transfer the higher torque from that engine, so they can benefit from longer gear ratios. The 1600 gearbox would be a better option for you; as it uses the same 190mm diameter clutch and the same flywheel. I would recommend fitting a decent quality 1.6 clutch with the gearbox too, because it will have stronger centrifugal springs in it to help achieve better "bite" from the clutch. I know they fit a standard 1.3 flywheel because that is what I run in my car. Another option to increase your car's economy would be to fit larger diameter wheel and tyre combinations, as you would be rolling further for the same amount of fuel burned. Be aware that your speedometer will be inaccurate if you choose larger wheels though.

I've been thinking about 185/60 r14 tyres, as those should actually make the speedometer perfectly accurate (currently it shows around 2.5% more than the actual speed, which is completely normal, and the 185/60 r14 tyres would up the real speed by about 2,8%. Additionally in this size there are more premium tyre models with low rolling resistance and they're often quite affordable.

 

As to the bigger clutch, it's screwed onto the flywheel, not the gearbox so i guess it wouldn't make much difference, especially considering the fact that the 1.3 mpi engine doesn't have the additional torque of the 1.9d. Although I did plan to put in a 1.6 clutch during next maintenance break.

Edited 13 March, 20179 yr by Mariosti

Finally I've found an answer, the 1.9d gearbox fit's almost plug and play. Apparently just one of the bolts that attach it to the engine have to be unscrewed or something like that and it's all.

http://skoda.panda.cz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=32846&sid=2eab0b08ba8e706c711e301238314d07&start=30

In the first post on that forum a guy shares his experience with such a gearbox swap.

What's interesting he found a 1.9d gearbox with 3.350 final drive (even longer gears than the 3.579 final drive that I know 1.9d gearboxes have).

To sum up his post the car dynamics didn't get much worse (they appear worse than they actually are, as to achieve similar acceleration on 1.9 gearbox to the 1.3 gearbox you must rev the engine higher, and thus stay longer on the same gear which makes you feel the acceleration is slower than it actually is (the rpm needle will go significantly slower than on the short gearbox)).

He mentioned that the Fifth gear is in this case only usable for cruising, as acceleration in it is significantly lower than on the 1.3 gearbox, and the top speed on Fifth gear is now lower (around 155km/h instead of the normal ~165km/h), although in this case 4th gear should finish at around 185km/h or even a bit higher, so In fourth gear the top speed would be most likely higher than with the 1.3 gearbox fifth gear.

Obviously he mentioned that around 100km/h it got comfortably quiet inside the car.

He also mentioned that fuel consumption lowered by around 1L/100km. He also mentioned that he achieved 4.5 L/100km on some longer routes.

 

To sum up it seems like a great upgrade even without tuning the 1.3 mpi engine, although the 0-100km/h acceleration should be a bit slower than on the 1.3 gearbox.

 

So in that case I'm looking for a 1.9d gearbox for my felly.

 

 

Ps. He mentioned 2200 rpm in Fifth gear at 94km/h.

Assuming that the V gear had 0.795 ratio (according to M. R. Cedrych) and 165/70 r13 tires,

that would give 1,763m per each tire rotation,

94 km/h would be 1566,66 m/min,

that would be 888.636 tire rotations per minute,

that would be 706,465 main gearbox shaft rotations per minute,

and that would require 3.1140 final drive.

Kind of doesn't add up, but there were lower Fifth gears from what i know.

 

Here it was mentioned that there existed an 0.717 Fifth gear, so the above would then change to:

637,152 main gearbox shaft rotations per minute,

and that would require a final drive of 3.452.

So most likely there was some quite significant read error in either the car speed, rpm's, or both.

Anyway it does prove that it's a useful modification.

 

I've found some additional info suggesting that 1.3 and 1.9 gearboxes had the same gear ratios(only the final drive differed), and the fifth was indeed 0.717

http://20let.skoda-auto.cz/uk/vyrobky/f_data.htm

Only the 1.6 had a relatively shorted Fifth gear considering the final drive.

What's worth mentioning is the fact that 40kW 1.3 engine was paired with a 3.833 final drive gearbox even though it had lower torque and significantly lower power output.

These gearbox ratios were all chosen by the manufacturer to get a good top speed in Fifth gear, even if it didn't make sense in day to day use:

- The 40kW 1.3 mpi engine had the peak power at 4500 rpm and it was still weaker in every rpm range than the 50kW 1.3 mpi, which is why it only had a 151 km/h declared top speed, and a shorter gearbox wouldn't increase that value at all).

- The 50kW 1.3 mpi engine had peak power declared at 5000 rpm, and that's basically around the top speed mark in fifth gear with the 4.118 final drive.

- The 55kW 1.6 mpi engine had peak power declared at 4500 rpm, 0.717*4.118=2.952 total ratio, 0,795*3.833=3.0472, so it would be a bit shorter than the 1.3 gearbox Fifth gear, most likely also to achieve max top speed (the declared 171km/h would happen at 5100 rpm, and the 1.6 mpi should still have good power output at that rpm).

- Diesel had peak power of 47kW declared at 4300 rpm, and that was most likely very close to it's top rpm (not sure where was the cut'off for them, 4500? For the mpi engines it was at 6000rpm), it had a quite narrow usable rpm range, it was significantly heavier than other felicias, and so it reached the 156km/h top speed at 0.717*3.579=2.566 gives around 3800 rpm at top speed, which is exactly in the middle between top torque area and peak power. 

Edited 15 March, 20179 yr by Mariosti

I have a Felicia Fun 1999 with currently a 1.6i gearbox and its failed massively beyond reconstruction.

 

Is a 1.3 gearbox suitable on a 1.6? (found a few on ebay) 

Reading this thread can see its been done the other way and working OK

Or is there another vehicles  gearbox that maybe more common in breakers yards?VW/Seat ?? 

 

All felicia gearboxes are same design. Iirc, only diferences are different bushings and linkage (it can he switched to 1.3 gearbox), final ratio and some minor reinforcement on case.

The gearbox from a 1.3 Felicia with engine code 135M (40 kW) after 07/97 is identical with yours. See attached photo.

Alternatively you can use a gearbox from 1.3 Felicia with engine code 136M (50 kW) after 07/97. It has a higher final drive gear ratio (4.118 vs 3.833). It means the car will have a lower top speed but more acceleration.

 

2 hours ago, RicardoM said:

It has a higher final drive gear ratio (4.118 vs 3.833). It means the car will have a lower top speed but more acceleration.

 

This may not be true, in case of 1.3 top speed with short gearbox is actually higher, because higher gear ratio means that more torque is transmitted to wheels.

It depends where and how you are driving. For higways, 3.833 is definitely better. 4,118 has ~500 more engine RPM at same speed (3000RPM @100km/h) so its better for city or faster driving.

 

Oh, I forgot to ansver second question: any other gearbox won't fit, since Felicia is not based on VW mechanics. It might be possible to fit Fabia/Octavia/Lupo 002 gearbox, if you fit 5th gear cover from 14SK, but since it has hydraulic clutch and cable gearchange, it'd be lot of work.

Edited 21 October, 20187 yr by Papez

14 hours ago, Papez said:

This may not be true, in case of 1.3 top speed with short gearbox is actually higher, because higher gear ratio means that more torque is transmitted to wheels.

More torque means more acceleration. More power means higher top speed. Felicia 1.6 with a gearbox from Felicia 1.3 136M will be zippier but will reach stock top speed only on a down incline at full throttle...

Edited 22 October, 20187 yr by RicardoM

1 hour ago, RicardoM said:

More torque means more acceleration. More power means higher top speed. Felicia 1.6 with a gearbox from Felicia 1.3 136M will be zippier but will reach stock top speed only on a down incline at full throttle...

Since power = torque*rpm, what happens, when you have 500 more engine RPM at same speed? You have also more available power. Atleast that's case of 1.3, which doesn't have as big torque drop as 1.6.

 

 

Also torque=acceleration and power=speed is nonsense. It's much more complex than this, but thats for different topic.

 

(Edit:ok, i did some math and at 170km/h max speed, engine RPM are ~4600 for 3.8FDR and ~5000 for 4.118FDR. According to graph, 1.6 have roughly same power output from 4600 to 5500RPM so maximum speed shouldn't be affected.)

Edited 22 October, 20187 yr by Papez

36 minutes ago, Papez said:

Since power = torque*rpm, what happens, when you have 500 more engine RPM at same speed? You have also more available power.

Wrong. AEE engine gets maximum power at lower rpm compared to 136M engine. Any rpm increase for AEE engine will not result in higher maximum power. That is why you can't have a higher top speed with AEE engine with 136M gearbox. AEE engine is a very "lazy" engine for its capacity.

 

Also remember that all my prior comments refer to AEE engine/gearbox vs 136M engine/gearbox. I agree the power/torque/rpm deserves a special topic but the subject of this topic is very specific. So let's keep it low on all levels...

31 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

Any rpm increase for AEE engine will not result in higher maximum power. 

 

Yes, as you can see in my previous post, in this case it's true, since AEE max speed occurs at engine's max power output. But it doesn't mean that output drops dramatically after it reaches maximum. On graph I found here, it stays nearly constant until 5500RPM Link. But it looks like it depends a lot on engine condition, since Octavia with same engine on same page have different result Link.

 

but even in case of Octavia, power output is only few kilowatts lower, so top speed will by different only by few kph. It depends more on engine condition or other things, than gearbox itself

Edited 22 October, 20187 yr by Papez