They had only realised what happened when they took the head apart. They’ve already done that. Would they have not noticed what the issue was when the done a compression test because they would of had to take the spark plugs out. 

They must have seen the tip missing, when removing it.

I would have used the borescope to look see if the tip was there or any damage visible. 

The head off was the next procedure.

 

So what is the damage since the head is off and they can see. What is the Valves on the head looking like.

 

?

Do you want to say which Dealership this is dealing with your car?     

?

What are they saying about their Employee not having checked the spark plugs at the last visit?   Talk with the Manager not the Workshop Manager.

Get stuff in writing.

42 minutes ago, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

NGK which are crap.

I've used NGK plugs with no issues on a variety of non-VAG makes. Which makes me think that the issue is VAG combustion chamber designs.

VAG are useless ***** 

@KenONeill

Not all NKG's. 

  The Original OEM fitted 2009-2012 then the revised ones 2012-2015 used in this application.  Audi had the same engine at 185ps in the A1 and specced different Ignition Coils and then when there were issues Audi techs used DENSO Plugs when there were reported issues.

 

That was when i started fitting DENSO as well.    There is 10 years of threads in this section on the issue, and on the gap changes, and the recommended gaps when using different plugs, hotter or cooler, and with remaps / tuning boxes or not.

If it was the spark plugs how would they last that long without any issues and then suddenly when seat star city (Birmingham) fix my waterpump and try to diagnose the issue. It’s my spark plugs. Makes no ****ing sense if you ask me 

They never lasted 40,000 miles, not even 20,000 miles.  But that is just the one spark plug. 

 

Sorry if it makes no sense to you, it makes no sense that VW Group were in denial and ignored all the warnings and experiences of failings.

It is all there in Lucifers Ultimate Guide to the 1.4 TSI. 

They haven’t said much about the damage. They said I need a new engine. Later on I will call for evidence and pictures of what’s happened and I will post so you all can see. They didn’t notice anything because I asked what the problem was before they took the head off and they said they didn’t know, they need to take the head off to find out. I asked them to check with a camera down the spark plug hole but they refused 

How on earth can that happen to a fully stock car. If I had mapped it, it’s a different story 

?

How long have you had the car, and if not from new how do you know not remapped unless you had a ECU reset or Software Update?

Many owners have no idea if a car has been remapped or not, and if well remapped.

 

In 2012 they discontinue producing SEAT Twinchargers until early 2013 and then even the different plugs did not resolve anything, and the software was still an issue, and the CTHE introduced other issues such as the Timing chain one.

 

I ordered a brand new Seat Ibiza Cupra for late 2012 and delivery was delayed and i cancelled, i was glad i did because there were still early issues.

Early Fabia MK2 vRS CTHE in late 2012 still had the problem which is why SEAT delayed the delivery of the Ibiza's.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/seat/ibiza-cupra/first-drives/seat-ibiza-cupra-first-drive-review

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 7 February, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

@Uzayr - Well, with the additional information from @Roottootemblowinootsoot (thanks mate) I'm thinking that a peculiarity of the 1.4TSi cylinder head design, combined with the NGK plug design can lead to the plugs overheating. The (clearly not adequately documented) workaround would have been to fit Denso plugs in these engines.

 

I don't think the NGKs are rubbish plugs, but they are a potential killer of this engine. Upthread you clearly show that you ask for a specific job to be done, and it was done. The fact that you did not ask for a different job to be done as well is not the garage's fault!

@KenONeill

Sadly what you think counts for nothing with those that had the premature demise of an engine due to the OEM plug failure.

Dealerships for VW, Skoda & SEAT kept fitting the recommended plugs and saying they were changed at 40,000 miles, some say 4 years and some 65,000 miles.

Then fail to check plugs.

 

So try and re-write history but it is what it is.   Dozens here have experienced it, hundreds and even thousands globally.

 

PS

If the OP reported that the car was not running after the Waterpump replacement there are actions 

that a tech in the know might well do and there is those that know jack sh!t.

 

They can ask a Owner about a spark plug change and suggest without that being up-selling.

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/461905-fabia-vrs-mkii-spark-plug-fail-new-engine-help-advice

 

Edited 7 February, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

@Uzayr

Sorry there is no more help i can offer if i have given any, if not again sorry,

the experts here that are up on spark plugs and how good VW are at fixing snagging faults might read the link above and learn something more.

 

All the best with it.

So if I call an electrician to fix my electric, should I be telling them how to do his job since that’s basically what your saying. Their job is to tell me what’s wrong, not the other way around. Should I tell my plumber about how to fix a water leak.  The point is, the technicians should know well enough what to look for and what to check

On 07/02/2020 at 11:55, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

I see it is a SEAT Ibiza Twincharger with 57,000 miles.
?

Has it ever had a Software Update applied.  Early newly launched ones in 2013 required that, the software changed later 2013 and i believe another software update was available.

Hi, you seem very well versed with these engines as I've scoured many forums for looking at possible issues to a problem I currently have with my 13 plate ibiza cupra and you seem to know more than most 'specialists'. If I could pick your brains a bit I'd very much appreciate it, and anyone else who has any advice I'd also be very grateful as there seems to be some knowledgeable fellas on here. I'll try to keep this as accurate and easy to follow as possible as I'm nackered and its now been almost 3 months without my car. I was on my way to work on 3rd March on al and just half mile from exit the car started to shake violently and stutter and miss badly then epc and engine management came on and I managed to limp to work which was half mile tops from where it started. Called rac man out and there were misfires on cylinders 1 and 3. He suspected coil packs and changed them and I already had some ngk bkr7eix at home that I got fetched in, as I had intended to get them changed soon with my car being on 33k, and no indication of them being done in receipts or service booklet. He replaced all 4 coils with bosch from eurocarparts and did the sparks for me. Upon taking the old sparks out 1,2 n 4 were normal brown colour but 3 was fouled but from memory it looked like brown deposits rather than black oily deposits. Unfortunately the plug is in the car which is still at the shop. Its hard to fully remember with it being so long ago but after replacing coils and plugs cylinder 1 misfire cleared but 3 was still present and battery light came on and struggled to start. The rac man pulled plug and it looked like water and petrol on plug and on piston when looking down. He put vac pipe in to try and dry it out to no avail. Upon checking his tablet he was on autodata and it came up with a known issue as software on these causing problems and he said for autodata to list it it must be common. It was decided that it needed towing to seat garage as local indy wouldn't be able to resolve it due to it being software related. The car was in and they checked oil which they said was very low and so topped it up and said they need inlet manifold off to investigate further which I gave them go ahead to do. 3 weeks later and they still hadn't done it and said they were closing due to lockdown and asked if I wanted to collect it and I said no as it was 10 miles from my home and didn't want to risk driving it misfiring like it was. I asked them about the software update but they said there was none, ive checked service book and only got the mineral oil one done so I'm not sure they are right about that. They only just re opened last Monday I told them to hang fire on the inlet manifold for now as I had a fuel filter air filter oil filter and some bosch plugs from eurocarpsrts and told them to use them and give it a service as it was due soon anyway. I tried the bosch plugs as they were recommended and not as cold as the ngk 7's and tried the fuel filter as I remembered about a week before it breaking down that I put half a litre of oil in and topped up with v power but for the first time I saw the mile range said 250 and its always said around 350 for a full tank so I thought that was a bit odd. In the 11000 miles I've had it its had v power 95 percent of times but in finding out these are gas direct injection the cleaning properties are pretty much rendered moot. They were talking about it being carboned up and doing a walnut blast but then they told me they don't have a certain tool and would cost over 4 grand to hire it in so that wouldnt happen. So I've asked them to do a compression test last Friday and I still haven't heard anything back. I also remember the rac man saying there was corrosion on some terminals so I'm wondering if it could be electrical related such as wiring loom for coils or injectors maybe. Do you think there is definitely a Software Update for my car? Many thanks if you get to read it and offer any advice.

7 hours ago, Mike118118 said:

Hi, you seem very well versed with these engines as I've scoured many forums for looking at possible issues to a problem I currently have with my 13 plate ibiza cupra and you seem to know more than most 'specialists'. If I could pick your brains a bit I'd very much appreciate it, and anyone else who has any advice I'd also be very grateful as there seems to be some knowledgeable fellas on here. I'll try to keep this as accurate and easy to follow as possible as I'm nackered and its now been almost 3 months without my car. I was on my way to work on 3rd March on al and just half mile from exit the car started to shake violently and stutter and miss badly then epc and engine management came on and I managed to limp to work which was half mile tops from where it started. Called rac man out and there were misfires on cylinders 1 and 3. He suspected coil packs and changed them and I already had some ngk bkr7eix at home that I got fetched in, as I had intended to get them changed soon with my car being on 33k, and no indication of them being done in receipts or service booklet. He replaced all 4 coils with bosch from eurocarparts and did the sparks for me. Upon taking the old sparks out 1,2 n 4 were normal brown colour but 3 was fouled but from memory it looked like brown deposits rather than black oily deposits. Unfortunately the plug is in the car which is still at the shop. Its hard to fully remember with it being so long ago but after replacing coils and plugs cylinder 1 misfire cleared but 3 was still present and battery light came on and struggled to start. The rac man pulled plug and it looked like water and petrol on plug and on piston when looking down. He put vac pipe in to try and dry it out to no avail. Upon checking his tablet he was on autodata and it came up with a known issue as software on these causing problems and he said for autodata to list it it must be common. It was decided that it needed towing to seat garage as local indy wouldn't be able to resolve it due to it being software related. The car was in and they checked oil which they said was very low and so topped it up and said they need inlet manifold off to investigate further which I gave them go ahead to do. 3 weeks later and they still hadn't done it and said they were closing due to lockdown and asked if I wanted to collect it and I said no as it was 10 miles from my home and didn't want to risk driving it misfiring like it was. I asked them about the software update but they said there was none, ive checked service book and only got the mineral oil one done so I'm not sure they are right about that. They only just re opened last Monday I told them to hang fire on the inlet manifold for now as I had a fuel filter air filter oil filter and some bosch plugs from eurocarpsrts and told them to use them and give it a service as it was due soon anyway. I tried the bosch plugs as they were recommended and not as cold as the ngk 7's and tried the fuel filter as I remembered about a week before it breaking down that I put half a litre of oil in and topped up with v power but for the first time I saw the mile range said 250 and its always said around 350 for a full tank so I thought that was a bit odd. In the 11000 miles I've had it its had v power 95 percent of times but in finding out these are gas direct injection the cleaning properties are pretty much rendered moot. They were talking about it being carboned up and doing a walnut blast but then they told me they don't have a certain tool and would cost over 4 grand to hire it in so that wouldnt happen. So I've asked them to do a compression test last Friday and I still haven't heard anything back. I also remember the rac man saying there was corrosion on some terminals so I'm wondering if it could be electrical related such as wiring loom for coils or injectors maybe. Do you think there is definitely a Software Update for my car? Many thanks if you get to read it and offer any advice.

 

Is it the twin charged 1.4 TFSI you have?

 

Sounds like your having very similar to symptoms to a lot of us, 100% get that compression test done as it sounds like your about to melt a piston or 2. If new coils and plugs haven't cured your problem id be very that internals aren't damaged.  Compression test, check results and if need be take the head off and have a look for cylinder scrape/burn. Oil/residue on the spark plug is never a good sign, These engines generally eat plugs for a laugh and in having owned mine 3 years now I've only ever had mine running good with bkr7eix plus  and denso.

 

In terms of software update....That's wouldn't cause misfires, Any sign of blue smoke from the exhaust  or any signs that  could be burning oil?

4 hours ago, Mickmartin said:

 

Is it the twin charged 1.4 TFSI you have?

 

Sounds like your having very similar to symptoms to a lot of us, 100% get that compression test done as it sounds like your about to melt a piston or 2. If new coils and plugs haven't cured your problem id be very that internals aren't damaged.  Compression test, check results and if need be take the head off and have a look for cylinder scrape/burn. Oil/residue on the spark plug is never a good sign, These engines generally eat plugs for a laugh and in having owned mine 3 years now I've only ever had mine running good with bkr7eix plus  and denso.

 

In terms of software update....That's wouldn't cause misfires, Any sign of blue smoke from the exhaust  or any signs that  could be burning oil?

Yeah I need to know the results of compression test and depending on that ill get them to try a wet compression test. They said they won't do a leakdown test but I can't remember what reason they gave me. I'm not sure if it was oil on plug as the pictures I've seen looked blacker than I remember my plug being, I'm sure it was brown deposits on it but the tip was definitely in tact. I'm wondering if the spray pattern is off on the injector but then again that could lead to scorching of the internals. There has never been any signs of blue smoke from the exhaust, the tail pipe was a bit sooty but not too bad. It's only cylinder 3 now thats missing. Many thanks for your help 

On 28/05/2020 at 12:30, Mike118118 said:

Yeah I need to know the results of compression test and depending on that ill get them to try a wet compression test. They said they won't do a leakdown test but I can't remember what reason they gave me. I'm not sure if it was oil on plug as the pictures I've seen looked blacker than I remember my plug being, I'm sure it was brown deposits on it but the tip was definitely in tact. I'm wondering if the spray pattern is off on the injector but then again that could lead to scorching of the internals. There has never been any signs of blue smoke from the exhaust, the tail pipe was a bit sooty but not too bad. It's only cylinder 3 now thats missing. Many thanks for your help 

Rang them up today and they said no compression on cylinder 3 so ive asked them to do a wet compression test to see if compression raises or not to try and narrow down the problem. Hoping its a valve rather than a holed piston. My luck it won't be though.

On 05/01/2017 at 18:22, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

Can you explain please.

 

?

Was your car a heavy oil user, ie were you having to put in lots of Oil?

 

The issues are  known and one plug can foul even when an engine is not a heavy oil user, 

but if the Master Tech is going to support this as being a Low Mileage Twincharger Lemon then Skoda UK know that out of warranty they still need to replace the engine at their expense.

?

Has the Dealership during the time they have done the Servicing ever done a Software Update on your ECU?

?

Did they make any comment on the Spark Plug condition only 6,000 miles ago when they changed the Spark Plugs.

(Not to call them liars, but did you see the plugs that came out 6,000 miles ago?)

I've noticed you said there is a Software Update for the early 13 plates but I only have the mineral oil done in the service booklet no record of Software update and I've asked a guy at the seat dealership and he said there is no update for my mode but I'm not sure that is true. Is there any evidence I can use to point to the engine failure due to the update not being done?

On 07/02/2020 at 11:55, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

I see it is a SEAT Ibiza Twincharger with 57,000 miles.
?

Has it ever had a Software Update applied.  Early newly launched ones in 2013 required that, the software changed later 2013 and i believe another software update was available.

Sorry to repeat but is there anywhere you can link to this info? Just might give me a case then.

@Mike118118

?

What is the build date of your car?  

?

What was the guy at the Dealerships Job, and was he checking for TPI's back in 2013 or since?

?

SEAT are not going to care are they about a car 7 years old if it is only having issues now?

Surely if the car had issues in the 7 years or used too much oil that would have been reported, Official Oil Consumption test done etc.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/seat/ibiza-cupra/first-drives/seat-ibiza-cupra-first-drive-review

 

All i can tell you is that the release of the Ibiza Cupra was delayed in early 2013.

I had one on order from 2012 as soon as the order books opened, that was when the CTHE engine went into the Fabia and they were going to start building the Ibiza again.

The first cars were using oil the same as the first vRS with a CTHE were and before the Autumn of 2013 cars were getting software update at SEAT Dealerships.

If your car had the update applied before delivery then it would not show, but the car surely was getting Main Dealership servicing was it not.

There must be a TPI on that Software Updates, surely not SEAT SECRET SERVICE Service Campaigns, like SKODA SECRET SERVICE Service Campaigns..

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/263293-ibiza-cupra-engine-revisions-will-the-fabia-get-thes

I WAS ABLE TO CANCEL MY SPECCED UP IBIZA, LEATHER, BREMBO'S ETC, & GET MY DEPOSIT BACK.

Reason being, some early Skoda with a CTHE were using oil.

I was in and out the SEAT Dealership lots at that time, my pals worked there.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/279292-cthecave-enginewhats-the-difference

 

.....................

No idea why a 2013 Cupra should have needed a DSG OIl Change because the World Wide Recall was in 2012, 

and it was 2014 before the Service Campaign started in the UK. 

That was '34F7'  Synthetic Oil changed to mineral oil and a software update.

 

Late 2012 Skoda Fabia vRS did not require that, but some had it done.

Then there is '34H5'  from 2013-2015 on the DQ200 dsg,  that is a Software Update.  That might have been what your car should have had done.

Edited 2 June, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

This was one of the members here to get the first of the CTHE Fabia vRS that had issues. @MilgeS

The even did Oil Spray Jets on his engine before it was then had a replacement engine.

Strange things with the earliest built CTHE's.

4 hours ago, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

@Mike118118

?

What is the build date of your car?  

?

What was the guy at the Dealerships Job, and was he checking for TPI's back in 2013 or since?

?

SEAT are not going to care are they about a car 7 years old if it is only having issues now?

Surely if the car had issues in the 7 years or used too much oil that would have been reported, Official Oil Consumption test done etc.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/seat/ibiza-cupra/first-drives/seat-ibiza-cupra-first-drive-review

 

All i can tell you is that the release of the Ibiza Cupra was delayed in early 2013.

I had one on order from 2012 as soon as the order books opened, that was when the CTHE engine went into the Fabia and they were going to start building the Ibiza again.

The first cars were using oil the same as the first vRS with a CTHE were and before the Autumn of 2013 cars were getting software update at SEAT Dealerships.

If your car had the update applied before delivery then it would not show, but the car surely was getting Main Dealership servicing was it not.

There must be a TPI on that Software Updates, surely not SEAT SECRET SERVICE Service Campaigns, like SKODA SECRET SERVICE Service Campaigns..

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/263293-ibiza-cupra-engine-revisions-will-the-fabia-get-thes

I WAS ABLE TO CANCEL MY SPECCED UP IBIZA, LEATHER, BREMBO'S ETC, & GET MY DEPOSIT BACK.

Reason being, some early Skoda with a CTHE were using oil.

I was in and out the SEAT Dealership lots at that time, my pals worked there.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/279292-cthecave-enginewhats-the-difference

 

.....................

No idea why a 2013 Cupra should have needed a DSG OIl Change because the World Wide Recall was in 2012, 

and it was 2014 before the Service Campaign started in the UK. 

That was '34F7'  Synthetic Oil changed to mineral oil and a software update.

 

Late 2012 Skoda Fabia vRS did not require that, but some had it done.

Then there is '34H5'  from 2013-2015 on the DQ200 dsg,  that is a Software Update.  That might have been what your car should have had done.

Thanks for getting back to me.

The date it was first registered was 28th June 2013, not sure if that's the same as the build date. Not sure of the job of the guy I'm dealing with, something like customer care but keep getting passed from one to the next. They don't want anything to do with it to be honest, I'm having to do all the diagnosing and asking them what to do. I've asked him if there was any software update but he said no but I'm not sure he's looked to be honest. I'll ask about a tpi but I'm going to contact rac as when they came out the guy looked the engine code up on auto data and he said about the software update being listed as a common problem which is the reason I got it towed to the dealership instead of my indy. Hopefully I can get a report from them. It had every service done at SEAT Dealerships through to late 17 so that should have been enough time to sort any issues. 

 

It has definitely had the 34f7 done as its noted in the back of the service booklet. My cousin works in the motor trade so he's gonna do a bit of digging around for me.

 

The car was using a bit of oil half a litre every 2 tanks I think. My cousin says the run really lean and hot and cylinder 3 is further away from the water pump. Hes thinking its piston crack or hole or valve broken or seating issue.

1 minute ago, Mike118118 said:

Thanks for getting back to me.

The date it was first registered was 28th June 2013, not sure if that's the same as the build date. Not sure of the job of the guy I'm dealing with, something like customer care but keep getting passed from one to the next. They don't want anything to do with it to be honest, I'm having to do all the diagnosing and asking them what to do. I've asked him if there was any software update but he said no but I'm not sure he's looked to be honest. I'll ask about a tpi but I'm going to contact rac as when they came out the guy looked the engine code up on auto data and he said about the software update being listed as a common problem which is the reason I got it towed to the dealership instead of my indy. Hopefully I can get a report from them. It had every service done at SEAT Dealerships through to late 17 so that should have been enough time to sort any issues. 

 

It has definitely had the 34f7 done as its noted in the back of the service booklet. My cousin works in the motor trade so he's gonna do a bit of digging around for me.

 

The car was using a bit of oil half a litre every 2 tanks I think. My cousin says the run really lean and hot and cylinder 3 is further away from the water pump. Hes thinking its piston crack or hole or valve broken or seating issue.

Always used v power for 11000 miles ive had it apart from a small handful, say 4 or 5 times I was stuck at a non shell garage. Used good oils too, millers nano drive and mobil. 

 

Found 2 Australian articles here which mention the software update adjusting engine knock parameters and vw putting new engines in cars 8 years out of warranty so I think I'm gonna try and fight for something.

 

https://ssch.com.au/trade-news/bulletin-volkswagen-1-4-piston-failure/

 

https://www.gdlauto.com.au/vw-1-4tsi-twin-charged-major-engine-failure-common-fault/

 

Your advice is much appreciated many thanks 

You are posting Australian Articles on engines up to 2012 which you do not have.

There were engine failures as in Rest of World with CAVE engines.

Difference is Australian Courts were able to rip VW a new hole.

**Read Lucifers Guide in the first link below if you want to read about SEAT's. 

Same engines and issues as in the VW, Skoda & Audi from 2010-2012,  then 2012/13-2014.**

 

Software updates were being done on the early 2013 SEAT Ibiza Cupra cars by the time your car was first registered.

So if your car was built say in May then it should have left the factory with the up to date software.

(But then SEAT Dealership staff surely know if they were applying new software on cars built in Jan, Feb, March and April 2013.)

 

You are trying to fight a fight in the UK that others have fought for years.

Australia is a totally different thing.

 

As to the DQ200 DSG and a 2013 car having '34F7' carried out.

That was maybe a SEAT Dealership taking the chance to get money from carrying that out.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/421365-421365-links-to-lucifers-ultimate-guide-to-14-tsi-twincharger-engines

EDIT.

If the links have gone you will need to search for them yourself.

 

..................................

Dozens of thread on CAVE & CTHE issues if you want to see what has gone on in the past.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/358101-vrs-mk-ii-twincharger-oil-consumption-issues

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/294051-cave-cthe-just-reply-please-if-you-have-had-an-engine-replaced

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/315115-service-campaign-dq200-dsg-oil-changeecu-fabias-in-uk

 

DSG Service campaign '34H5'  is for DQ200 DSG from 2013-2015  Started in the UK in 2017.

(New recall started in Australia in 2019 on them...)

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/447800-dq200-dsg-2011-2015-service-campaign-experience

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/425424-2017-another-dq200-7-speed-dsg-service-campaign

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 2 June, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot