Really need some advice with this one.

 

Took my 65k mileage 2009 VRS into the garage recently because there was a nasty rattling noise coming from the engine. The garage changed the oil and the hydraulics but it didn't fix the problem, so I took it to nearest Skoda dealer.

 

They had a look and just told me I need a brand new engine and quoted £5,700! Probably more than the car is worth now...

 

I asked what happened, and they said possibly someone may have put the wrong oil in, which has congealed and failed to protect the top of the engine properly. They can't know for sure.

 

I had the car serviced and the oil changed back in November using servicingstop.co.uk.

 

Do I have grounds to claim compensation from Servicing Stop for putting the wrong oil in (probably)?

Can I get an engine somewhere that costs a lot less?

The car still runs - should I just cut my losses and sell it as is?

 

Any and all advice much appreciated!

 

 

Edited 9 June, 20179 yr by REB73

Do you know what oil was put in by servicingstop? What is listed on their invoice?

 

Can you get the Skoda garage to confirm in writing that the damage is due to incorrect oil being used?

 

What was the service history prior to the service in November?

 

If Skoda will confirm that the damage is due to the wrong oil and you can show that servicing stop are the only service agents who have put the wrong oil into the car then you may have a case against them. Collect that information and have a chat with your solicitor.

 

Beyond that, you have two options as I see it: take the car to an independent specialist and see if the engine can be rebuilt; get a used engine and fit it. Both of these should be cheaper than a new engine from Skoda.

 

If you sell it, you're passing on a major problem to someone else. Is the rest of the car worth keeping?

No matter how sympathetic I am towards your plight, I am sure the the phrases ..."Possibly using the wrong oil and ...the dealer thinks.... " Are not going to stand up. From memory in 2012 when my 07 TFSI was serviced, the mechanic said it was in good nick but also made a point of showing me the lack of top end cam wear and mentioned oil feed. I think it comes down to whether you have a good solid service history for your car and if you can prove it was in top order prior to the last oil change and finally if you are willing to slog through timely expensive legal arguments. Is this rattle not the MkII FL TSI cam chain adjuster problem? 

Edits:  These comments made assuming this is a petrol vRS, but looking back, I'm not sure it has been confirmed!!

 

It sounds like maybe the hydraulic tappets have become non operational and maybe some camshaft damage but they haven't stripped it yet as the OP says they can't know for sure?

 

I agree, this would all have to become a little more concrete before taking the matter to formal proceedings, I think you would want to be armed with a bit more solid info before even approaching the previous service agent. Who are they? Are they an online thing that could service your car anywhere? 

 

What records do you have of last service and service history  and oils used before that?

 

I'm not sure how long, it would take, it depends and nobody will have tried it deliberately. Depends on how wrong the oil was. Are you sure it was even changed? Congealed oil can happen by running it for far too long. Just because it wasn't a vw certified oil wouldn't mean certain death in a matter of months, especially if it was a quality oil.

 

As previous posters mentioned, there are two other key vulnerabilities on these engines, the timing chain tensioner, which can start with a rattle esp on start up and oil control rings failing and eventually leading to scored bores and high oil consumption and longer term engine failure.

 

Edited 9 June, 20179 yr by TheClient

I'd be amazed if the type of oil was the problem. Any modern oil would not do that including cheap supermarket oil. They are all made to a standard (please don't start the premium oil versus etc. etc. debate).

If it is an oil problem it's more likely to be because of the oil not being changed frequently enough but it's much more likely to be a mechanical problem.

Read this recent topic....

 

 

I very much doubt you could claim after all this time from the old garage.  

 

You could (depending on how you feel about it) wash your hands of it and sell to WBAC or similar as it's running at the moment. They pay a lower price but they know the cars they buy will be sometimes good or sometimes bad - so IMO no serious moral implications for disposing of it that way! 

I'd probably try to get a better feel for what is wrong first, it is all a bit lose at present.  Maybe take to another independent Garage. Failing that, offload it per previous poster or consider a donor engine from a wrecked car or better still a reconditioned engine.

Thanks for all the replies.

 

Yes it is a petrol VRS. 

 

The oil is only listed on the invoice as OIL (LONG LIFE OIL) and cost £24.

 

And unfortunately both garages involved are being rather vague about the cause. The first place to look at it (Dalston Motors who are pretty good imho) changed the oil, put in new hydraulic tappets and then told me it looked like there was damage to the camshaft which they couldn't fix. They didn't charge me anything so they are definitely the good guys in this situation.

 

Skoda have said little more than "Yeah you need a new engine" but aren't sure what may have caused it.

 

I have asked both garages for something in writing that may or may not give me grounds to approach Servicing Stop about the oil. I guess we'll see what they say.

 

Beyond all that, can anyone recommend a good independent engine rebuilder, or somewhere I could get a reconditioned engine, in or around North London? I'm kind of ignorant when it comes to this kind of thing, so would welcome guidance, as I can't afford to spend 5.7k for a new one!

 

Thanks all.

This is going to be tricky, the first garage changed the oil and tappets and seem to have had concerns about the oil, if I have understood correctly. They are the only garage that have seen the "bad" oil. The other Skoda garage haven't because the car was running new oil....  But have you or Dalston kept the oil removed, I imagine they were concerned about its physical appearance rather than any analysis done??

 

The £24 is a supplement for special oil (not the total charge) based on what I can see on the website fine print, and seems to have been charged and the description reads long life oil and sounds correct but vague. It doesn't give you an exact oil, make and type to confirm it meets the required VW502.00 or VW 504.00 certification.

 

All too late now, but I would not trust my car to be serviced by an organisation that could, it seems, use any mechanic, garage or back yard bodger? Do you know where the car went?  It is asking for trouble.  But is it the problem here? Did you look at the oil immediately (say by checking the dipstick) after it was changed by the servicingstop agent? Did you look to see if the oil filter looked to be replaced, brand changed or clean or anything else of note? Did you see the "bad" oil after removed Dalston motors - has it been kept by anyone?

 

I think you are on a difficult road to holding anyone liable now, with this rather unclear audit trail.

 

Dalston seem to have been very generous - why was that? Did you used to have the car serviced there in the past for them to owe you a favour?

 

It seems you need to understand why the Skoda dealer have immediately skipped to new engine. I.e. how extensive is the damage, is it repairable?  Maybe at another specialist independent garage if Skoda can't articulate why it is a new engine.  Or you turn to a donor engine or a rebuilder, but a good garage should have an engineering house who they work with for re-building engineering activities.

 

I have no experience of recommending any in North London I'm afraid.....

Just rethinking some of the information provided.

 

Are you sure Dalston Motors replaced the hydraulic lifters (tappets). That would be quite a labour intensive job on an engine like these, they would of had to quote a sizeable sum to do that I would have thought. In doing so, they would see the camshafts, so would be able to reliably say if either one had damage or not.... 

 

What are the symptoms now, is there still a rattle on start up, is the engine light lit, is it driving poorly?

8 minutes ago, TheClient said:

Just rethinking some of the information provided.

 

Are you sure Dalston Motors replaced the hydraulic lifters (tappets). That would be quite a labour intensive job on an engine like these, they would of had to quote a sizeable sum to do that I would have thought. In doing so, they would see the camshafts, so would be able to reliably say if either one had damage or not.... 

 

What are the symptoms now, is there still a rattle on start up, is the engine light lit, is it driving poorly?

 

There is the same rattle in the engine as there always was (although I haven't picked it up again from Skoda, so this is only true as of last weekend), and it actually gets worse as the car drives, rather than being something that just happens on start-up.

 

The car was initially driving very poorly - when I took it to Dalston Motors it was occasionally misfiring. They changed the oil (which they said had shards of metal in), replaced "the hydraulics" (their words, so not entirely sure of the details) and redid the timings, but said they hadn't actually fixed the problem I brought it in with, so wouldn't charge me, having initially quoted £650 for the hydraulics work. They did see the damaged camshafts and told me they were an unusual model, so they couldn't fix them - that was the point at which they told me to take the car to Skoda.

 

When I picked the car up from them it actually sounded a lot better than it did when I took it in; the misfiring had gone, but the rattle was still unmistakably there. 

 

Skoda haven't given me any details - I was hoping to go get the car Saturday but was besieged by relatives and couldn't make it.

24 minutes ago, TheClient said:

Just rethinking some of the information provided.

 

Are you sure Dalston Motors replaced the hydraulic lifters (tappets). That would be quite a labour intensive job on an engine like these, they would of had to quote a sizeable sum to do that I would have thought. In doing so, they would see the camshafts, so would be able to reliably say if either one had damage or not.... 

 

What are the symptoms now, is there still a rattle on start up, is the engine light lit, is it driving poorly?

 

Also, having thought about it, there is a chance that the garage that Servicing Stop originally sent my car to for service in November was actually Dalston Motors! I know they take bookings from Servicing Stop because I arranged my MOT through Servicing Stop and ended up picking it up from Dalston Motors a while back:they were super cool about a couple of minor things I needed to fix, so I went straight to them when this issue arose...

 

May or may not be relevant to the freebie?

Well, VRS 2009 means TSI engine EA888 family, code CCZA, right? What exactly damaged that new engine needed? I guess timing tensioner and elonged chain was the issue ...

Just to have full view, did the engine use oil and if, how much on how many miles? But if shards of metal already found in oil, I am afraid the head bearings for camshafts already badly worn out

 

Concerning "They changed the oil, put in new hydraulic tappets and then told me it looked like there was damage to the camshaft which they couldn't fix. They didn't charge me anything so they are definitely the good guys in this situation." they had to take timing chain off, so they should be aware of its condition. Yet they replaced "the hydraulics" (their words, so not entirely sure of the details) and redid the timings". Seems Dalston Motors tried to help, but do they realy know these modern "beasts"?

 

"But said they hadn't actually fixed the problem I brought it in with, so wouldn't charge me, having initially quoted £650 for the hydraulics work." Well, not sure what to think about it ...

Edited 12 June, 20179 yr by rayx

1 hour ago, REB73 said:

 

There is the same rattle in the engine as there always was (although I haven't picked it up again from Skoda, so this is only true as of last weekend), and it actually gets worse as the car drives, rather than being something that just happens on start-up.

 

The car was initially driving very poorly - when I took it to Dalston Motors it was occasionally misfiring. They changed the oil (which they said had shards of metal in), replaced "the hydraulics" (their words, so not entirely sure of the details) and redid the timings, but said they hadn't actually fixed the problem I brought it in with, so wouldn't charge me, having initially quoted £650 for the hydraulics work. They did see the damaged camshafts and told me they were an unusual model, so they couldn't fix them - that was the point at which they told me to take the car to Skoda.

 

When I picked the car up from them it actually sounded a lot better than it did when I took it in; the misfiring had gone, but the rattle was still unmistakably there. 

 

Skoda haven't given me any details - I was hoping to go get the car Saturday but was besieged by relatives and couldn't make it.

 

Ok, well a few things are becoming clearer now. I am still not convinced of the cause of this saga and it would appear to me, a possibility could still be timing chain tensioner or timing chain stretch, causing timing to move out, which can be very bad news for these engines.

 

Because of the repair history being so fragmented and these engines suffering from that vulnerability already, I am also assuming CCZA engine, I can't see you having much chance of apportioning blame on a previous service agent on the current facts.

 

Rayx asked a few questions on how the car was before this happened. Did it use oil, drive well, have any faults, miles you said are at 65k?

 

Depending on the answers, a complete dismantle and rebuild job might be possible, but you'd need to find someone with a lower hourly rate than a Skoda dealer. An experienced independent specialising in VAG cars maybe an option.

 

Nobody will want to just repair the camshaft and timing problem without further dismantling, checking and replacement as the oil fragments could already be causing / caused other problems inside the engine.

 

I think you will have to get the car from Skoda or get it recovered elsewhere. It sounds like this dealer will not take on the rebuilding activities and only go for the new engine. Their labour rate maybe too prohibitive.  Lay it on the line and ask them to offer an alternative but it sound like they are not going to offer a economically feasible fix.

 

Edit: possibly, even at a specialist independent garage, an exchange engine might be suggested.

 

Edited 12 June, 20179 yr by TheClient

The car drove really well before the weird rattling noise, although I must admit there was an exhaust warning light on the dashboard for a quite a long time that I ended up ignoring for about a year or more because I couldn't detect any impact on performance. I assumed it was something to do with the cold air intake lid which had come off (and which I taped back down myself). May have been a mistake, although I don't know if that warning light would be related to such a fundamental engine problem...

 

I think I will have to speak to Skoda before I can find out any more about the feasibility of a rebuild, or what might have caused the damage beyond an issue with the oil. Maybe the oil is just a distraction.

Do you mean EML or EPC? http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/warning-lights#c038-filtered-tabs-container_yellow Guess EML ... I can say 90% beginning of that trouble you have now. And, did you have to top up oil?

 

Now you have to deal only with people, who know that engine, that is really not simple one.

Edited 12 June, 20179 yr by rayx

1 hour ago, REB73 said:

The car drove really well before the weird rattling noise, although I must admit there was an exhaust warning light on the dashboard for a quite a long time that I ended up ignoring for about a year or more because I couldn't detect any impact on performance. I assumed it was something to do with the cold air intake lid which had come off (and which I taped back down myself). May have been a mistake, although I don't know if that warning light would be related to such a fundamental engine problem...

 

I think I will have to speak to Skoda before I can find out any more about the feasibility of a rebuild, or what might have caused the damage beyond an issue with the oil. Maybe the oil is just a distraction.

I think the oil is probably a distraction. I don't think it should be your focus now.  That EML light may have been a warning that the timing was not feasible. The original garage would of read the code, and maybe it is noted on any paperwork they gave you and then cleared the code, it may have returned if the underlying problem hasn't been resolved.