Which DSG?

[Awed]

Hi,

 

I'm returning to the Skoda fold...owned an Octavia for many years before switching to a Citroen Berlingo (don't knock it, a fantastic family load-lugger).  That car has now reached the end of its life, so a fortnight ago I paid a deposit at Bowling Green Garage, Worcester, for a new Superb estate.  

 

Delivery is not expected until March. I'm using the time until then to gen up on the new vehicle, a lot of it spent on these forums seeking tips on living with the DSG.

 

My question is: which type of DSG will likely be fitted to my car? Six or seven speed, wet or dry clutch?

 

The vehicle is a Superb Estate DSG, SE trim with the 1.4 litre petrol 150PS engine, ACT. Googling has not proved productive and even the sales bods at the garage seemed uncertain. Honest John's motoring site reports that VW are using up stocks of 7 speed dry clutch models fitter to smaller engines, which have proved less reliable, and are replacing them with a new 7-speed wet clutch version. But that might not apply to Skoda, or might not be true at all.

 

Any ideas? And is there any way I could tell, short of asking the servicing department to look? The vehicle was not specced with the tiptronic option.

 

My only concern is reliability. I just want whatever has the least chance of causing problems.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Awed

 

 

[FixxaH]

I think the 1.4 engine is paired with the dry 7-speed. The 2.0 petrol and the diesels are paired with the wet version. The dry dsg should be fine with the 250nm engine though..

[xlray]

Hi.

I currently have an Audi A3 150 ACT with the 7 speed dry clutch gearbox. to be honest the gearbox is the one thing that spoils the car.

My experience with DSG is 10 years with the wet clutch DQ250 six speed in a SEAT Altea. This has been swapped for a Superb TDi 190 L&K estate which has the same gearbox. 

Also a Transporter camper with the 180 Tdi engine and the seven speed DQ500 gearbox. 

 

By far the best is the DQ500. No problems with the Altea over 10 years. The Superb is OK but only 2000 miles on the clock, although I would say it changes up too early, and changes down too much going down hills.

 

The Dry Clutch on the A3 is awful, snatchy and difficult when parking. It often has trouble finding the right gear at slow speeds, turning etc. 

 

I would never buy anything with this gearbox in again. I would be the main reason why the A3 would be changed.

 

I think more research is required, or buy a diesel. Have you tried the 2L Tsi?.

 

Ray

 

[rtj70]

11 minutes ago, xlray said:

The Dry Clutch on the A3 is awful, snatchy and difficult when parking. It often has trouble finding the right gear at slow speeds, turning etc. 

 

I had the A3 saloon with the 150PS 1.4TFSI ACT engine and the 7-speed dry clutch DSG... Never had a problem with it including parking during the 3 years I had it. Like any auto it will creep - unless you have auto hold as an option and press the brakes and then it will engage auto-hold and make parking more tricky unless you turn off auto hold.

 

I also now have the same engine and gearbox in a Superb. Again no issues.

 

And it will be a dry clutch 7 speed in your 1.4TSI car on order. The 7 speed wet clutch is intended for engines with far more torque than the 250Nm that the 1.4TSI produces.

[Awed]

Thanks for the replies. The consensus then is unequivocally that it will come with a dry 7 speed, for better or worse.

 

Too late to change my order, xlray, the die is cast. I hope what rtj70 says is correct.  To be fair, I do drive like a pussycat...by which I do not mean I chase string and starlings and excrete into a box of gravel, but that I am slow. Turning auto-hold off when parking is definitely a good tip I have read on assorted forums (fora?) as the creep can then be used to advantage for low-speed manoeuvres. Autohold is standard, not an option, at least on the SE.  Some people report it is not even necessary to turn it off, that pressing the brake gently will prevent it engaging.  But that's an aside: the supposedly maintenance-free 7 speed dry clutch is what I will expect. The car will be under warranty for the time I have it, so if it does suffer any of the reported problems, it'll not be the end of the world. (Phone rings...Hello? Oh, it *is* the end of the world...)

 

All my researches indicate that the DSG is a very marmite option, loved and loathed in equal measure, that reliability has improved enormously but that dry ones remain slightly more fault-prone.

[rtj70]

I had read comments on DSGs before I tried a Passat with a diesel 170PS engine and 6-speed DSG in 2011. It drove really well but then I found it was not easy to park due to the on-off nature of power/braking. And with it being a company car and higher rental and BIK rates I went for a manual. I later figured out auto hold was part of the problem... In a manual you'd use the clutch to slowly manoeuvre. In the DSG you'd creep and maybe use the brake and then that enabled auto hold.

 

Speed forward 3 years and the BIK for a 150PS petrol A3 saloon made it cheaper than a diesel when it had the DSG. Had a demo drive and then a long weekend test drive. DSG was how I'd expect an auto to behave and the A3 did not have auto-hold.

 

So now have a Superb with the same engine and gearbox as the A3... It's been fine in 2 months of driving. MPG not as good as a smaller/lighter A3 but that was expected. 

 

I think a lot of people's issue with DSG is from having a VW with auto-hold as standard and they don't realise it's auto-hold and not DSG that's the issue. 

[Awed]

Good points. As I said, it was reliability (and the likelihood of problems) that prompted my original question re 6/7 speed, wet/dry clutch, those are not factors that affect the driving. But what you say chimes with what I read elsewhere, e.g.

 

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4577

 

Autohold is standard across the Superb range (even on S model) with DSGs now.  Guess I will just have to try it out come March! If anyone sees a white Skoda land-barge lurching forwards and backwards in a supermarket car park, it'll probably be me.

[Rooted]

If your new car comes with a DQ200 7 speed twin dry clutch.  the name is the same, 

but it is not the DQ200 that were part of a World Wide Recall of Millions built between 2009-2012 that was to change the Synthetic oil to mineral, and a software update, 

and a warranty extension, or just a Service Campaign in Europe, Europe being home of VW and **not 'In the world'.**

Or just not where The Home Government / Authorities or EU Commissioners or Courts frighten them.

 

& it will not be a DQ200 DSG from 2013-2015 where then the oil and software then caused there to be Service Campaign '34H5 on some produced because for failures,. Software Updates, some get new MCU's some boxes replaced because they are gubbed. 

Not that VW, Skoda, Audi, SEAT tell you that.

 

Said to be over heating, pressure, and various,. in other wise VW coc-ked up yet again.

 

So now surely, Vorsprung Durch Technik,  As good as DQ200 DSG are going to get.

'We must produce more that are fit for purpose before discontinuing these DQ200 DSG',  Get another year or 2 out of them.  Pretend there was never an issue, just the odd few.

Overblown on the Internet, FAKE NEWS.  

Edited 23 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[facet edge]

5 hours ago, Awed said:

 

 

Autohold is standard across the Superb range (even on S model) with DSGs now.  Guess I will just have to try it out come March! If anyone sees a white Skoda land-barge lurching forwards and backwards in a supermarket car park, it'll probably be me.

There is a button to disengage the auto handbrake, which I think you will find causes most of the problems. I always use it when manoeuvring. You can then utilise the creep and not worry about surging backwards and forwards. The auto hold usually only keeps the car from rolling back on hills.

There are lots of adverse comments about the 7 speed but I have one and I am very impressed by it.

[Awed]

A tale worthy of the Brothers Grimm, Awaoffski!

 

From VW's perspective I suppose the DSG embodies a classical engineering dilemma: for how long do you continue to invest in a technology that works well in most situations, yet which continues to throw up problems?

 

Our lives are enriched by many products and systems which exist only because the teams who developed them gritted their teeth and persisted, learning and improving. Having an interest in spaceflight, I think the prime example of this is the Soyuz rocket and spacecraft. It is without a doubt the most reliable, cheapest and safest way to insert humans into orbit. But that success did not come straight off the drawing board. It was built on many early failures (and a few deaths).  Contrast with the USAians who threw away all their accumulated experience with Apollo and invested trillions in the Shuttle, which ultimately proved to be not only the least economically viable way to lob flesh and tin into the heavens, but by far the deadliest.

 

I'm glad VW are persisting with DSG.  Good engineering requires nerve and faith. I'm just banking that it works out like Soyuz, not Shuttle...

[Awed]

13 minutes ago, facet edge said:

There is a button to disengage the auto handbrake, which I think you will find causes most of the problems. I always use it when manoeuvring. You can then utilise the creep and not worry about surging backwards and forwards. The auto hold usually only keeps the car from rolling back on hills.

There are lots of adverse comments about the 7 speed but I have one and I am very impressed by it.

 

Right, this is what I read many people saying. Disengage Autohold (nothing to do with the electronic parking brake, that's entirely separate) for low speed manoeuvres. That will restore a conventional auto box style "creep".

[xman]

Be aware that all dry boxes now require servicing every 3 years regardless of mileage. Involves oil and filter change. Current Skoda price £189, not gonna get cheaper....

 

Technicians at my dealer are incompetent and I am sure this will lead to all sorts of mysterious problems and faults as its a complex job (for them)

 

I've only ever driven a dsg equipped car (7 speed dry) once (been in a few as a passenger) and in the short time, a number of things I found not to my liking.

 

There were several times when I thought the dsg's choice of gear wasnt very good. Obviously not possible to read the road ahead.

 

Parking, or reversing took a while to adapt to, but all that constant slipping of a dry clutch is against my religion. Yes I know it has a temperature sensor and all that, but no wonder some dry boxes develop judder (which is either due to glazed or contaminated friction plates).

 

I have doubts delicate and precise parking manoeuvering on steepish hills is going to easy or even possible.

 

Takeoff on a roundabout is hairy sometimes.

 

But the thing that got to me the most was technical.  The nature of gear changes on up changes. Although little or no surge can be felt, the rev counter and engine tone drops instantly like a step function.

 

That's a lot of momentum/ inertial energy to instantly shed from the  engine/flywheel, thinking twisting cranks, dmf's on overtime and/or high peak clutch loads. Wet clutches can probably handle it ok as they are cooled by lubricant but whether dry clutches can, I have my doubts??

 

All in all, if you are not keeping the car beyond 3 years then its not a problem (as with variable servicing). But I keep cars for at least 150,000 miles, so probably not a good idea.

[Awed]

All comments noted and appreciated, xman (and everyone). Yes, I took a risk ordering the DSG after 25 years of driving manuals, but I fancied a change and I do think autoboxes of one kind or another are the future. Hybrids and Electric cars won't use conventional transmissions. Might as well taste the shape of things to come.

[Rooted]

xman,

Since what production date do all Twin Dry Clutch DSG require Oil change servicing every 3 years?

 

* The World Wide Recall, or Service Campaign, '34F7' had no Filter Changed, only the Synthetic Oil for Mineral, 

& in some countries a new MCU, so where is this Filter that needs changing now some 10 years on from the first DQ200's?*

http://skoda.co.nz/news/dsg-service-campaign 

 

Is there a VW Group Press Release or a TPI.

If this is on DQ200 DSG just being sold now then so be it.

?

What about those that have had '34H5' carried out, a software update done in the passed 12 months, 

and no word from the VW Group on 3 yearly oil changes being required, 

Is there some TPI @ Dealerships, pr letters to the Registered Keepers?

 

If on ones in Euro 5 and Euro 6 Emission VW Group Vehicle VW will need to do them free, as the vehicles were sold 

with 'No Service Schedule or Guidelines and requirement of Oil Changes, filled for life.'

 

 

This is not what happens at the Service Campaign, or when oil is changed when a MCU is, 

then the Official Filler is available, but hey ho it is not rocket science.Just no Service Schedule or Guidelines for the 7 Speed Twin Dry Clutch DSG,

& if anyone knows the Filter Part Number for the DQ200's please post it.

 

Edited 23 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[xman]

Quote

xman,

Since what production date do all Twin Dry Clutch DSG require Oil change servicing every 3 years?

 

Ok, so I don't know for sure about the filter or oil, but during the course of ordering a 1.4 act engined superb, I briefly considered DSG. So I asked the salesman for a definitive answer on what if any servicing requirement was for the 7 speed dry box fitted to this car. He agreed that service reception wouldn't be a reliable source for an answer but said he knew a man who definitely could answer the question. He then disappeared into the service workshop area for several minutes and came back somewhat surprised and said. These gearboxes NOW require a service costing £189 every 3 years REGARDLESS of mileage. (His emphasis not mine), I spent a minute, repeating and clarifying the question and answer at which point I decided to drop any idea of dsg.

 

This is a what a DQ200 filter looks like 

DQ200-DSG-7-Speed-0AM-oil-filter-325433E-auto-transmission-filter-for-VW-Audi-/262834647542

 

I would have thought using plain old mineral oil in a fine tolerance hydraulic control system has a limited life. Maybe its vag's latest "aha, wait a minute" moment or as a result of increasing no of faults being reported since the change to mineral.

 

Someone needs to ask their own dealer or skoda uk to check the validity of my dealers statement. I can't be bothered, as I don't believe them half the time.

Edited 23 December, 2017 by xman

[Awed]

Thanks, xman. Three years from now I hope I remember this post. Will be interesting to know if my local dealer is on the ball. 

[Rooted]

Someone does need to ask a VW Group Master Tech and Skoda Technical Department to ask Skoda CZ rather than begin some Internet Myth.

 

So some non technical person asked another and some mix up with Haldex that was a 40,000 mile Service item might now be 30,000 with some, and every 3 years with another. These might or might not have a filter.

 

Or mixed up the Wet Clutch which might or might not get a filter and has a Service Interval with a Dry Clutch with no filter.

 

*Brake Fluid Changes are now @ 3 Years for the first and each 2 years, a few years ago that was at 2 years and then each 2 years,

some Service Desk Staff know just what the computer says, then still tries to 'Up sell' or just says nothing as they have 'No technical training maybe a NVQ in keyboards....*

 

As to just some mineral oil,  it is not some stuff bought at a supermarket, it was used because of moisture in synthetic and corrosion of alloys.

Millions around the world filled by VW Group Gearbox plants which are all around the world, & with Mineral oil, and if millions need a Service Schedule now to change again VW Group will be paying for it.

 

Someone or many need to tell VW Group to get Servicing Requirements clear,

and explain why VW have some Schedules & Guidelines, as do Audi, then Skoda & SEAT do different. and not only do customers get confused, Service Desk Staff with no Qualifications in Engineering 

or Mechanic Technology and Sales people get it wrong.

This is a job they do 5 or 6 days a week, and still do not know the right answers to questions.

 

DSG transmission oil & filter change _ Volkswagen UK.mhtml

 

Skoda Builds 500,000th DQ200 DSG Gearbox - autoevolution.mhtml

Double jubilee_ ŠKODA celebrates four million FABIAs and 500,000 of third generation - ŠKODA.mhtml

Edited 24 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[Rooted]

Xman,  could you maybe say which is the dealership you go to that told you about all dry clutch DSG needing the oil changed every 3 years,  maybe even who told you.   Then someone might email them or skoda UK Customer services to get conformation it is correct,  or that the staff get further training.  http://skoda.co.uk/about-us/contact-us

Edited 24 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[kpk1]

@Awed

The 1.4TSI is paired with the DSG7 (DQ200), which is a dry dual clutch. I know DQ200 is the worst of all DSGs that VAG produces. It brakes usually in the first 20-70k miles. It also depends on the driving style. Do you have a heavy foot ?

I'm in a situation like you but I'll choose a manual transmission paired with the same engine, 1.4TSI.

If you really want a DSG than switch to a diesel power unit because since this autumn those are paired with the new DSG7 (DQ381) which is a wet clutch.

Reliability is questionable these days but at least the wet dual-clutches are less prone to early damage, statistically speaking.

Hope it helps!

Cheers!

Edited 24 December, 2017 by kpk1

[Rooted]

^^^ ??? 

Heavy right foot causes issues does it?    Any evidence of this?

Like where those have taken 180ps engines to 220ps or so and the 250Nm to 320Nm

& not changed the clutch packs of software?

 

So these failures still applies does it to DQ200 DSG as VW, SKODA, AUDI & SEAT are fitting to Euro 6 Emission vehicles from 2015 on?.

(Certainly it has with a few members Fabia Mk's on this forum and these are with 90 &110 ps engines.)

 

VW Group only doing a 3 year manufacturers warranty. 2 in some World Regions, and you need to pay more if you want 5 years.

 

& Now some Dealership employees saying that All Dry Clutch DSG need oil changes every 3 years regardless of mileage.

 

So that must really be messing up Lease and Finance deals as 3 year old Finance and Servicing plans will need changing 

and there must be so many now 20,000 to 70,000 miles or is that km vehicles having failing DSG's.

 

So VW Group are knowingly selling vehicles with a high risk of the DQ200 DSG failing, 

and then at Minor Services @ 3 years they need to pay to change the oil. 

Or between Major Services if on Variable / Flexible Servicing.

 

Everyday is a school day on the internet!    Some really just read a 'Forum' or Journalist and need to maybe research a bit deeper.

Get the Manufacturers to tell you their story,

about the Manufacturing Design, Materials, hardware, software, consumables quality control, sourcing, and workmanship, 

or just where they fail to get that right,

then why the Manufacturer not prepared to be honest on these issues, and any upgrades required, when and why.

 

Get this from the 2nd biggest car manufacturer in the world, sometimes the biggest,

& not from some Franchised Dealerships employee that never set foot in an Engineering Class, 

or College.

http://volkswagen.co.uk/owners/servicing/regimes 

Edited 24 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[Rooted]

 

http://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/2017/10/10_millionth_gearbox.html 

Maybe customer should be saying to Dealer Principals if looking to buy a car with a DQ200 DSG, you want a 5 Year Warranty free 

and the 3 year service to Manufacturers Schedule free including that 'DQ 200' Service.  The one that you found out about from those that never bought a car with a DSG.

ŠKODA AUTO produces 10 millionth gearbox.mhtml

Edited 24 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[Awed]

7 hours ago, kpk1 said:

@Awed

The 1.4TSI is paired with the DSG7 (DQ200), which is a dry dual clutch. I know DQ200 is the worst of all DSGs that VAG produces. It brakes usually in the first 20-70k miles. It also depends on the driving style. Do you have a heavy foot ?

I'm in a situation like you but I'll choose a manual transmission paired with the same engine, 1.4TSI.

If you really want a DSG than switch to a diesel power unit because since this autumn those are paired with the new DSG7 (DQ381) which is a wet clutch.

Reliability is questionable these days but at least the wet dual-clutches are less prone to early damage, statistically speaking.

Hope it helps!

Cheers!

 

Well, I can't switch, the order was placed weeks ago. And I don't want diesel. But I hear what you're saying. The DSG unit I'll be getting is the problematic one. But they don't ALL develop problems, surely? And it'll be under warranty. (Yes, still an inconvenience).  No, I'm not heavy footed. 

 

Hmmmmm! Forewarned is forearmed. Or four-armed, or something.

 

[Rooted]

1.8 Million just produced by Skoda, millions more by VW,

so what is the failure rate, 1%, 2 or as high as 10%,.  which is highly unlikely.

 

1.2, 1.4, 1.8 TSI's and 1.4TDI & 1.6TDI engines have higher failure rates than the failure warranty or out of warranty claims on 7 speed twin dry clutch DSG's.

[Awed]

1 hour ago, AwaoffSki said:

1.8 Million just produced by Skoda, millions more by VW,

so what is the failure rate, 1%, 2 or as high as 10%,.  which is highly unlikely.

 

1.2, 1.4, 1.8 TSI's and 1.4TDI & 1.6TDI engines have higher failure rates than the failure warranty or out of warranty claims on 7 speed twin dry clutch DSG's.

 

That's quite reassuring. Thank you, Awaoffski. 

[Rooted]

Bumping this thread @ just over 2 years.

 

VW Group still have no Guidelines or Service Schedule for changing oil in DQ200 DSG's that left the Fasctory from 2012 /13 with Mineral Oil in.

 

If a Dealership Employees says an Oil Change is required ask them to show where VW Group have changed the filled for life advice, 

& how long is life, 8 years, 10 years or for all time and a day!