Felicia 1.3 battery light

[Musescu_A]

A week ago I have managed to flood the engine and my battery went flat. When I push started the car I had to rev it high otherwise the instrument cluster would not work. Note that it's carbureted without a catalytic converter so I think I don't think I broke anything by push-starting it.

 

Last night I recharged the battery and added some distilled water (level was low). I started the car straight up (cranked extremely well) but unless I revved the engine to about 4000 RPM the dashboard would not work. Note that no lights come on when I turn the ignition on without starting the engine (usually the battery and brake light come on).

 

I have discovered that when the dashboard is not working, the engine is running purely on battery power (I disconnected the battery - while engine was running and it died);

Also my alternator is working since the engine is working if I disconnect the battery after I rev the engine and the instrument cluster comes alive.

 

I used my multimeter and I got these measurements:

• I get 12.9V when the lights are on (dipped beam) and engine is off;
• I get 11.2V when engine is cranking;
• I get 1.3A from the battery terminal and battery cable while idling and ~2A when the engine is revved up to 2000 RPM;

 

I have tried cleaning the terminals on the voltage regulator but it didn't work. I took out the voltage regulator and the brushes seemed okay too.

[RicardoM]

See here

[KenONeill]

@Musescu_A - Bullet (1) makes me think that your alternator is over-charging and/or your multimeter is out of calibration since no way can a 6 cell lead-acid accumulator normally reach that voltage.

[KenONeill]

@RicardoM 98 Felicia "it's carbureted without a catalytic converter " - This is why I ask about fueling and ignition on non-EU cars if the owner doesn't specify. An EU car this age would have fuel injection, cat and electronic ignition.

[Musescu_A]

52 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

@Musescu_A - Bullet (1) makes me think that your alternator is over-charging and/or your multimeter is out of calibration since no way can a 6 cell lead-acid accumulator normally reach that voltage.

I tried running that diagnosis procedure ricardo posted and i get 14.5V while charging when the choke is on (around 1700 rpm). Right now my battery voltage is reading 12.9V. Prpbably the high voltage that i put in the first post as because the battery has just been taken off the charger. I had it charging indoors for about 15 hours.

 

@RicardoM the problem with that procedure is that i get NO lights on my dash when i turn the ignition on. Usually i would get a battery light, a brake fluid light and a parking brake light. Also from what i remember, before i had this issue there was a clicking sound when i was turning the key. Now it's all quiet. I think there is a relay for ignition that doesn't work anymore either because it broke down or because the alternator/battery doesn't provide enough current to activate it.

 

EDIT: I checked the x-relief relay and it seems to work. The lights and heater fan get turned off when the engine is cranking.

Edited 29 January, 2018 by Musescu_A

[RicardoM]

26 minutes ago, Musescu_A said:

the problem with that procedure is that i get NO lights on my dash when i turn the ignition on.

You're right. There was a mistake in the manual.

 

Page 3/1 Read "Alternator warning indicator does not come on when ignition switched on" in Contents.

Page 3/3 Read "Alternator warning indicator does not come on when ignition switched on" in title.

[Musescu_A]

On 1/29/2018 at 14:35, RicardoM said:

You're right. There was a mistake in the manual.

 

Page 3/1 Read "Alternator warning indicator does not come on when ignition switched on" in Contents.

Page 3/3 Read "Alternator warning indicator does not come on when ignition switched on" in title.

Eitherway the procedure is not right for my problem. I think it has to do with the ignition relay which I have no idea where it us. I can hear the clicking of it somewhere near the A/C pannel but only when the dashboard comes alive.

 

In the first video I click the parking brake switch to show you how the lights react on the cluster. Look what happens with the fuel light when I take my hand off the parking brake switch. Also at 0:20, after I turn the engine off I then turn on the ignition (note the dipped beam indicator) but nothing comes on. There should be the brake (!) light, oil light and battery light on the lower part of my dashboard. Also the relay that I am talking about does not operate because I cannot hear it clicking.

 

In the second video I start the car and let it run for a bit before slowly revving it to 3000 RPM. When it reaches 3000 RPM the instrument cluster comes alive (relay clicks but cannot be heard on the video). Also when I turn off the engine at 0:23 you can hear the relay click again. Unless I do the revving thing, when I turn off the engine the relay doesn't click. Therefor that makes me think that I doesn't operate properly.

In the second video the car was not completely cold and I tried my best to push the throttle progressively, I know it's not good at all to do this but if I don't it it's going to kill my battery and seriously I'm sick of push starting the car every time I park it then head back home to recharge the battery. Also the battery is fairly good (from 2015) and I don't want to spend any money on a new one instead of spending it on fixing the other quirks this car has.

 

I've already replaced the voltage regulator with a cheap one even if the procedure came out okay to see if it can fix the problem. So could you please tell me where the ignition relay is located so I can try replacing that too? Note that the wiring is okay. ''Okay'' because there's a good connection on all of them but I have no idea how they're wired (the car had electrical problems in the past and has an aftermarket central locking system fitted).

Edited 4 February, 2018 by Musescu_A

[RicardoM]

7 hours ago, Musescu_A said:

Eitherway the procedure is not right for my problem.

By 'is not right' I hope you mean it doesn't apply to solve your problem.

The procedure itself  is correct for checking the alternator.

 

I'm not sure what you expect the "ignition relay" to be. Felicia has not such relay. The contact that feeds power from the battery (30) to accessories (15) is in the ignition switch driven mechanically by the ignition key. Yes, there are relays for power loads (light beams, rear window heater, fog lights, wipers, etc.). The relay you hear clicking (?) might be the X-contact relief relay (R7) that is inside relay/fuse box and it has a metallic or gray case marked 18 on top. R7 relay sole purpose is to disconnect power loads from the battery during engine cranking. The relay starts clicking randomly in two situations:

• 9 out of 10 times it's the 1-pin connector with yellow wire that feeds the solenoid of the starter (see illustration) - bridges to earth because of corrosion. Clean it thoroughly then insert grease.
• the relay R7 is faulty

I would suspect the ignition switch too.

[Musescu_A]

45 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

By 'is not right' I hope you mean it doesn't apply to solve your problem.

Yes, that's what I mean. I'm sorry I didn't phrase it correctly.

 

46 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

I'm not sure what you expect the "ignition relay" to be. Felicia has not such relay. The contact that feeds power from the battery (30) to accessories (15) is in the ignition switch driven mechanically by the ignition key. Yes, there are relays for power loads (light beams, rear window heater, fog lights, wipers, etc.). The relay you hear clicking (?) might be the X-contact relief relay (R7) that is inside relay/fuse box and it has a metallic or gray case marked 18 on top. R7 relay sole purpose is to disconnect power loads from the battery during engine cranking.

I thought the car has a separated relay that operates when the ignition is turned on to give power to the coil, dashboard lights, wipers, etc. But I've just realised that there's no point in having 2 relays on the same power circuit.

 

I'll measure the resistance between the yellow wire and ground to see if that's the issue. Also, should I take out the ignition block and measure its terminals?

[RicardoM]

24 minutes ago, Musescu_A said:

I'll measure the resistance between the yellow wire and ground to see if that's the issue.

Forget about that. A multimeter injects a very small current when measuring resistance. Just take out the connector, spray WD40 in it, scrape corrosion if necessary, put small amount of grease inside, refit.

[Musescu_A]

15 hours ago, RicardoM said:

Just take out the connector, spray WD40 in it, scrape corrosion if necessary, put small amount of grease inside, refit.

Done, the connector was clean but I still sprayed it down with WD40 and wiped it. Then I sprayed some white grease inside the connector and put it back in.

Nothing changed, same simptoms.

 

I took out the R7 relay and tried starting the car without it. The problem persisted.

[Musescu_A]

I found this picture around the forums and I realised that I have no cable in 30B. Could that be the issue?

[Musescu_A]

Also I found this mind-boggling diagram with what I believe it is, the entire car electrical component. I might have a weak ground where that 8V voltage regulator on the dashboard is.

[RicardoM]

2 hours ago, Musescu_A said:

I realised that I have no cable in 30B. Could that be the issue?

No, it's a spare plug.

51 minutes ago, Musescu_A said:

I might have a weak ground where that 8V voltage regulator on the dashboard is.

What makes you think that?

Btw, as I've told many times on this subject, the dashboard PCB has very fragile copper tracks, very thin both in width and thickness, easy to crack. All 3 female plugs (yellow, black, white) can break connection to the pins of the respective PCB male connector if took out / inserted repeatedly. It's a painstaking job to chase cracks or cold solder joints because you need a very good magnifying glass.

 

Please identify the clicking relay by hearing or feel.

[Musescu_A]

16 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

Please identify the clicking relay by hearing or feel.

I opened the R7 relay and saw that it was operating normally. My lights and fan get turned off when the engine cranks. Also when I put my ignition on the R7 relay clicks once.

The clicking that appears when the dashboard comes alive is from the aftermarket alarm unit. That's why I heard it above the actual fuse box. This thing in the picture below.

 

Problem is that when I disconnect all the connectors from the unit the issue is still there. I still have to rev the engine for the dash to start working. It's all a mess in there with soldered wires, all with different colours from the factory setup (like in the diagram I sent earlier). I hate the hell out of that alarm (I even cut out the siren) but I am not able to remove it because all my locks are messed up because apparently the owner locked the keys inside and tried breaking the locks, eventually ending up breaking all of them (trunk and both doors).

 

26 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

What makes you think that?

I found an old thread that showed the same problems that I have. And in the diagram posted there the lights from the oil, battery and parking brake share the same ground point. And if you look at the first video I posted you can see that the fuel reserve light dims when the parking brake light comes on (P).

[RicardoM]

OK, that may be true. I observed the tachometer has a lag when revving the engine. I would have a close look on PCB as suggested. It's not an earth point problem. It's a cold solder joint on PCB or an intermittent contact.

[RicardoM]

19 minutes ago, Musescu_A said:

I hate the hell out of that alarm (I even cut out the siren) but I am not able to remove it because all my locks are messed up because apparently the owner locked the keys inside and tried breaking the locks, eventually ending up breaking all of them (trunk and both doors).

that is a performance in itself! There are many options to open the doors from outside effortlessly...

[RicardoM]

Can you borrow a known good battery for a quick test?

[Musescu_A]

6 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

that is a performance in itself! There are many options to open the doors from outside effortlessly...

I know.....he was either lying about the  problem or he really was that short minded at the time...

 

5 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

Can you borrow a known good battery for a quick test?

I will try tonight.

Do you know what would actually happen if i disconnected the alternator fully?

[RicardoM]

5 hours ago, Musescu_A said:

Do you know what would actually happen if i disconnected the alternator fully?

The engine will run on battery.

 

But the more I think about your car's electrical system odd behaviour, the more I think the alternator is bad. That is in the absence of any modification(s) on original wiring. So there might be another possibility. That a third-party device connected to electrical system is faulty or is failing. Get rid of all such things (non OEM alarm, central locking, radio, etc.) and see how it goes.

[RicardoM]

In case you are reluctant about the alternator being faulty, I have to explain that there are times when devices don't fail totally, but intermittent. It's a PITA to diagnose them. But again, I would leave the alternator alone until you are totally certain the wiring is as original and intact as possible.

[Musescu_A]

On 2/6/2018 at 17:17, RicardoM said:

In case you are reluctant about the alternator being faulty, I have to explain that there are times when devices don't fail totally, but intermittent. It's a PITA to diagnose them. But again, I would leave the alternator alone until you are totally certain the wiring is as original and intact as possible.

Alarm doesn't change anything, same happens when I disconnect the radio entirely.

I was unable to get a good battery for a test but I think that may be the issue because it's charging too slowly. The charging current at 2000 RPM is around 1.3 A, it dropped a lot since last time I checked it.

What I didn't test was the green wire (D+) that goes from the alternator to the dashboard pin but I had to put my dashboard back up because I need to get new plates and I need the car. In the nearest future I will get a new battery and come back here to tell you the results. I'll also try and get my hands on an osciloscope to check the output of the alternator.

Edited 8 February, 2018 by Musescu_A

[RicardoM]

16 minutes ago, Musescu_A said:

What I didn't test was the green wire (D+) that goes from the alternator to the dashboard pin

In terms of continuity there is nothing wrong with it. The tachometer works except the lag when raising the rpm. See explanation below.

21 minutes ago, Musescu_A said:

I was unable to get a good battery for a test but I think that may be the issue because it's charging too slowly. The charging current at 2000 RPM is around 1.3 A, it dropped a lot since last time I checked it.

Well... there you go. The battery (almost) died when you cranked the engine and flatten the battery. Probably one element is shorted or shorting intermittently. The alternator is trying to charge it but the voltage on battery bus gets high enough only at higher rpm. By "high enough" I mean the minimum voltage input to 8 Volts regulator on the dashboard PCB to work.

[RicardoM]

Just a little more information. I've looked on the datasheet for the LM2940T8.0 voltage regulator to see what is the minimum input voltage to get 8 V regulated output voltage. It is 9.4 V (see below).

 

The voltage regulator schematic for Felicia is shown below. It gets battery voltage after ignition switch (15) through a diode (put there for protection against reversed polarity). Since the typical voltage drop on a diode is 0.6 V, results that if the battery voltage is lower than 10 V there is no 8 V output voltage. The tachometer, fuel gauge, and coolant temperature gauge will not function properly.