Hi,

 

We're strongly considering a F3 Combi "Clever" with the 95ps 1.0TSI engine for my wife, who currently drives a 2005/2006 Citroen C3 with the 1.4HDI diesel. Torque-wise the engines are almost identical on paper (the TSI actually pulls from 1500rpm, the HDI from 2000rpm), the 35ps or so extra should compensate for the weight difference.  Sadly we can't try one before placing the order (if we want to profit from a government "conversion" aid) but it will apparently be possible to modify the order if a car becomes available for a test ride early enough. Anyway, my wife's usage pattern (mostly around 15km trips over small, hillish country roads where 90km/h is rarely possible) is apparently not going to please a modern diesel.

 

The vendor claims he gets between 5 and 5.5 liters per 100km on his F3 with the same engine, which makes only about 1l/100km more thirsty than our current C3, and diesel and petrol prices are being aligned here so fuel costs aren't going to explode.

 

Checking on spritmonitor.de I see that the vendor is giving us realistic values, but of course I don't know what usage the cars represented there see. Should we expect very different values given my wife's usage pattern, be it during the break-in period (10000km?) or beyond?

 

Any suggestions for the break-in period highly appreciated - she has only driven used diesel engines before and my own experience with breaking in engines is limited to a single big-block V2 in a motorcycle.

 

Then there's the use of E85. Another vendor we saw offered to install a converter in a (new) Fiat 500L for 400€. There's the obvious advantage of almost 2x lower prices at the pump and a cleaner combustion (even a bit more power if I understand correctly, due to higher octane levels). Converters are recognised officially since december 2017 here in France, so installation now comes with a modification of the car registration. The dealership where we'd be getting the F3 doesn't offer the service.

 

Does anyone here know how well the 1.0TSI takes to E85, and what Skoda's stance on aftermarket conversion is?

 

I swapped from a 1.4HDI diesel in larger/heavier 2003 Peugeot to a smaller/lighter Fabia 1.2TSI 90PS petrol.

Both engines have similar torque figures but the Fabia torque comes in earlier and goes higher up the rev range.

 

For me the Fabia is better/faster/quieter than the Peugeot was that I had for 13 years/131,00 miles.

The fuel consumption in the Fabia now it has run in is almost as good as the Peugeot.

 

The fuel consumption improved by 10-20% after running in for me.

During last summer I was getting 60 MPG or less than 5Lt/100km from the Fabia in good conditions.

 

I would expect you NOT to achieve this with your hilly driving conditions.

In the UK petrol is just cheaper than Diesel. I haven't seen E85 in the UK.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks AG Falco

Thanks.

 

I'm not sure if hilly is really the correct term for the kind of roads we have here. With the 1.4HDI C3 we see around 4.4l/100km on average in summer, 4.8 in winter. When driving long distances (including highway) that can be as much a 0.4l/100km lower. If I read you correctly you got similar values with the Peugeot, with the just the caveat that our C3 is about 200kg lighter than what the Fabia will weigh.

 

We ought to be taking delivery in the 2nd half of june only, meaning the break-in can be done in the warm months and with a lot less of those shortish home/work trips (wife is a schoolteacher).

 

 

I live in the country and don't drive in town traffic often.

Most trips are about 20 Km long. So this driving helps with the low fuel consumption I get.

 

I collected my Fabia in June 2016 and it is now at 30,000 Km.

It took over a 1 year / 15,000 Km  to run in especially after it had the first service.

 

The Peugeot was about 1200 Kg which is 200 Kg heavier than the Fabia.

 

The Fabia III Combi/estate 1.0 TSI is about 1060 Kg.

A Citroen C3 1.4 HDI is about 1000 Kg.

 

Thanks AG Falco

 

 

About break-in: I have been following the manual with 4 new cars (1 diesel and 3 petrol) and that has worked fine for me. Basically you need to keep below 3000 RPM and avoid straining the engine for the first 500 km or so (maybe 750). After that you can start revving higher. The fuel economy will improve during at least the first 10K km, maybe even later. My experience is from the 4-cyl 1.2 TSI engines, but I guess the 3-cyl should behave in the same way.

Yeah, this sounds the same as what you'd do for a motorcycle; in addition you'd keep the engine at certain revs in the optimal range for prolonged periods, so things bed in nicely and not just at the revs corresponding to your usual cruising speed in highest gear. 

 

Per-cylinder displacement is comparable in the 3il 1.0 TSI and the 4il 1.2 TSI, so they should indeed be comparable as far as break-in is concerned (and as far as I know; the larger the per-cylinder displacement, the more it dislikes abrupt rev changes when new and cold).

Just 'drive in' / 'Run in'  the new tyres, breaks, suspension, transmission and the engines run in just fine.

The oil in from that factory does the job just fine, and these days the have that supposed to be OK for near 20,000 miles without a change, 

not even just 9,400 miles.

(1,000 mile or 5,000 miles 'Running in Oil / Filter changes' a thing of the past, well as far as manufacturers are concerned.)

But then it is 'simply cleaver' to do a early oil change and not go 20,000 miles (18,000 plus) or 2 years if buying a car as a keeper and not just leasing it.

http://volkswagen.co.uk/owners/servicing/regimes 

Edited 27 February, 20188 yr by AwaoffSki

Good idea. We'll probably be sticking to the 1y interval she's used to (meaning once every approx. 17k km), but I'll bring up the idea of doing just an oil change after 6 months, to have a fresh batch for the cold and humid season (car will be sleeping outside).

I have not run a car in since a 1980 Escort and that was the last car I bought that needed a 1500 mile oil change. Since then its been simply avoid too low revs (you should even when its bedded in), max throttle and very high revs for more than a few seconds (even when overtaking you are not over sensible revs for more than a few seconds), other than that drive normally. The two things that are rarely mentioned is avoiding sitting at constant revs on the motorway for mile upon mile and being way to gentle on a new engine. Both can cause bore glazing and one you have it the only cure is an engine rebuild. Cars with glazed bores will always use oil and never produce good power.

 

So IMHO, just drive normally other than varying your speed on motorways. Its worked for me for almost 35 years.

Edited 27 February, 20188 yr by skidpan

It causes no glazing. 

Lubrication and the scrappers / rings and pistons are going up and done the same distance, the expansion of the metals at 2,500 or 5,000 rpm and oil is not making any grinding paste.

 

Rebuild engines of the past and present a whole different thing really from a Factory engine ready to go.

34 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

It causes no glazing. 

Lubrication and the scrappers / rings and pistons are going up and done the same distance, the expansion of the metals at 2,500 or 5,000 rpm and oil is not making any grinding paste.

 

Rebuild engines of the past and present a whole different thing really from a Factory engine ready to go.

 

Plenty of evidence on the web about it.

 

When the new Fabia arrives it will driven from day 1 exactly like all our other cars have since the mid 80's. No babying, not thrashing and no constant speed for hours. Its served us well enough.

 

There's enough distractions on the road without studying your every move behind the wheel for the first few hundred miles.

 

Just drive it and enjoy it.

When I collected my Fabia 1.2 TSI DSG last June here in Finland the car seller when asked about running in period just told us there's no need anymore for that. Told me to drive the car like I normally would with any small family car.

I agree with those saying that normal (non-sporty normal) driving patterns for the first  ~700 miles offer a fine 'running in' process for ALL a brand new car's components before introducing more spirited driving. It is pretty well echoes the manufacturer's recommendations anyway.

 

 My own personal experience is that no new car I have purchased over the last 20 years has shown any noticeable improvement in refinement or consumption over my ownership.

Believe me that I would have welcomed any sort of  improvement for a couple of the non-Skoda vehicles one of which was abysmal (petrol) and the other below average (diesel).

The two Octavia we have owned have offered excellent consumption from the outset but any consumption improvements have been down to my learning how best to utilise the engine characteristics. 1.9pd and 1.4tsi are both good units but entirely different drives.

Others relate vastly different experiences so it is one of those subjects that always provide interesting discussion. 

 

There are world record classifications for distance covered in 24 hours. The required procedure is to select three random vehicles off the assembly line, they are then allowed to just bed-in the vehicles over 60 miles (from memory and probably more for brakes and tyres and general safety) then transport them to a high speed oval track where a team of drivers go full bore for 24 hours, only stopping for refuelling/driver changes/tyres.

Mazda (6) and Opel/Vauxhall (Astra) hold records in their small diesel classifications with average speeds of over 120 mph with all vehicles completing the trials.

Could not really do it with petrol vehicles as they would be stopping too regularly to refuel.

I was always disappointed they never reported how much fuel was used, which was my interest, and more relevant to this discussion, the vehicle condition post race which might settle one aspect of the running in debate.

 

Edited 28 February, 20188 yr by Gerrycan

As skidpan indicates, one of the main things to avoid is constant speed driving with a fixed throttle position. This glazes the cylinder bores, increasing oil consumption as the engine ages, and prevents the engine from properly running in. Therefore the engine never produces full power or best fuel economy. It can also lead to broken piston rings ending the life of the engine early. Easy to avoid, just follow the running in instructions in the manual....enjoy the new car when you get it!

'If' the honing / glazing / low running in pressure issues were still there in this day and age there would be a great number of Ex Demonstrators / Hire / Lease cars that were Excessive Oil Users, and many One owners carefully run in from new never raced or rallied that never turn out as Excessive Oil Users.

Does not seem to work that way though.

It also seems the contradict the advice I got when breaking in my Guzzi air-cooled V2 engine about 10y ago, to keep it at a series of fixed revs for prolonged periods of time. That advice came from a pro racer who's very knowledgeable about engines.

 

It's of course near impossible to keep an engine at a truly fixed regime during real-world driving conditions - maybe that's what "saved" me but my bike never consumed any oil after it was broken in.

Well Awayoffski, many ex lease and hire cars do have issues with oil usage caused by bore glazing. Some even break their engines at very low miles. But most don't in spite of the treatment they receive. There is a higher percentage of these cars that go on to develope engine issues than privately owned cars and our workshops used to deal with them. Glazed bores are more common than you might think and this leads to problems at some point. That's why your owners manual tells you to avoid constant speed driving with fixed throttle settings during running in. We don't write that stuff for fun! And just to be clear, I have owned perfectly good ex demo and ex hire cars, only one of which developed a piston problem due to bore glazing. 

 

RJ,  you misunderstood the advice you were given. You should observe a series of fixed engine rev limits during break in. But Guzzi recommends varying the speed and engine revs within those limits, avoiding fixed engine speeds and throttle settings. I've owned many bikes including Guzzi's. 

 

Yes many ex lease & hire, because so many VW Group and other cars are Fleet.

Sad how many careful owners run in cars and still get excessive oil use eventually.

 

I served my time in garages, and when at school worked in an Engine Reboring Engineering Shop.

Family members owned a Motor Engineering works where i have been getting engines from for 40 years.

Glazed bores are not more common than i think, but then we know that, i do not think they are uncommon.

 

I have owned lots of used cars, and new ones. 

Still own ones near 20 years old. 

Each to their own, but running in new vehicles is important, that is the vehicles, brakes, tyres, suspension, bearings, the whole shooting match.

As to running in at UK NSL's that is rather easy with them being 60 / 70 MPH.

Dont hold it in low gears at 80 mph.

 

As to Owners Manuals and the 'Driving In' as they called it, no not written as a joke.

Not like the May use 0.5 litre 1,000 km, more in the first 5,000 miles etc. 

It is what is put for every engine, 3,4,5,6,8,12 cylinder, petrol or diesel from 44kw.

Ar35 covering for decades now, when there are badly built engines, bad rings, scrappers, liners, bores, chains, tensioners, valves, heads, breather valves, water pumps, thermostats, belts, tensioners again  blame the drivers.

Never admit the materials / components / quality control or software / engine management is pretty crap sometimes.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/266114-18tsi-and-20tsi-engine-failures 

 

Edited 28 February, 20188 yr by AwaoffSki

I can no longer find the exchange I had about this, the advice didn't come from Guzzi and was as I described, with the revs evidently within the current limits and to be observed as an additional measure, not instead of using the entire possible range of revs.

 

I'm pretty certain about that because I remember limiting the duration of those fixed-rev runs (not more than a few minutes at a time) because I didn't like the effect it had on my fuel consumption

 

 

So you're basically saying that one shouldn't take a new car to take long motor or highway trips on quiet days?

 

Edited 28 February, 20188 yr by RJVB

It is in the owners manual how they recommend running / driving in vehicles.

Then about the brakes, towing etc.

Same advice for decades now.

 

Not something Sales People seem to bother about, or even seem to know about in many cases.

 

You will see plenty on here that collect a new vehicle, have a towbar on and set off on long trips, abroad and the likes.

Those as well collect a car, complain about a hard ride but never check the tyre pressures or set them.

Then those that find there are still Transit Blocks in the suspension.

Edited 28 February, 20188 yr by AwaoffSki

12 hours ago, RJVB said:

I can no longer find the exchange I had about this, the advice didn't come from Guzzi and was as I described, with the revs evidently within the current limits and to be observed as an additional measure, not instead of using the entire possible range of revs.

 

I'm pretty certain about that because I remember limiting the duration of those fixed-rev runs (not more than a few minutes at a time) because I didn't like the effect it had on my fuel consumption

 

 

So you're basically saying that one shouldn't take a new car to take long motor or highway trips on quiet days?

 

 

No, I'm saying to avoid "fixed throttle, fixed engine speed" driving. Quite different. You can take your new car on long highway trips driving it quite normally but don't use cruise control or stay at the same engine speed with fixed throttle position for mile after mile.  Vary the engine speed and load frequently, change the gears more often and don't treat it too gently. Modern engine like to have work given to them otherwise the bores will start to glaze. Once glazing has started the engine will never run in and will never give you full engine power or economy. Remember, running in an engine is about getting metal to metal contact to happen between engine components. You won't get that just by driving along in a straight line at 60-70mph in the same gear at the same fixed throttle and engine load. 

 

I used to design and develop engines of all sorts for cars and motorcycles and I've been a master tech for over 33 years. Car engines produced these days do not require the same care when running in as engines produced 40 years ago. Motorcycle engines can be a bit different. We now use something called 'plato honing' in the cylinder bores (in cars and bikes) to alleviate the need to drive slowly or avoid higher revs (not full throttle though) during running in. Plato honing allows the all important "metal to metal" contact that is required to run your engine in to happen in a very controlled way, reducing the risk of damage to the engine that could otherwise be caused by uninformed persons driving the car like a lunatic. But you are much less likely to get glazed cylinder bores if you follow the advice in the owners manual. Even a complete idiot who knows nothing about running in an engine will usually still get a fairly good engine if you don't go too mad with it from new, but running it in as per the book is still the best method and pays dividends in terms of performance, economy and long term reliability.

 

Bike engines you have to be a bit more careful with as they have a much higher brake mean specific power output per litre. This means bike engines are more stressed than car engines and they run very hot by comparison. They rev often twice or three times as high as a car engine making them much more susceptible to damage during running in. Because of the differences in design and engine materials used in bike engines, there are many different plato honing grades used in the cylinder bores. This means some bikes you must not load or rev high during the first few hundred miles otherwise damage to the cylinder bores will occur. Other types of bike engine use differing materials and as a result use different plato honing grade, and will be able to rev high and take big loads straight away without any damage whatsoever. The only way you can tell how to run the engine in is by reading the owners manual which will tell you what technique to use. I've just bought a brand new Piaggio single cylinder bike (4 stroke fuel injected engine). I can use 80% power straight out the box, yet my new Suzuki 400 with a nikasil plated alloy bore can only take 45% power output straight away otherwise engine damage will result. So it's "read the manual" everytime and follow the instructions. You can't go wrong.

& remember you can 'go wrong', so use common sense.

like with the translation from German, CZ, Spanish to English / American English, and remember 'Must' might be 'May'. & Normal Operating Temp can become 'Warm'. 

then the Capacities can have Typo's, as does many other things in 'Owners Manuals', and even Techs Manuals.

Goes uncorrected for issue after issue, year after year with some manuals.

> quite normally but don't use cruise control or stay at the same engine speed with fixed throttle position for mile after mile

 

There's something of a contradiction there, at least when you have the road more or less to yourself and you're somewhat concerned about fuel economy

 

Why would glazing only happen during break-in, and no longer after a certain mileage?

 

Guzzi (and BMW boxer) engines do indeed rev high for V2 engines (AFAIK) but I fail to understand why they'd be more stressed than a typical car engine. If you look at the power (and torque) to weight ratio you're closer to an American (muscle) car. I can't comment on running temperature, there's no gauge for that on the dash and I've forgotten the usual running temperature. 

 

> Normal Operating Temp can become 'Warm'

 

It usually is a bit more than that even, no?

^^^ 

Yes 'Operating Temperature' as in a VW Manual or Normal Operating Temperature is at 50*oC or above, normally the 80-90*oC, 

as in car has been running not sitting ticking over.

 

Skoda Manuals for the same engine might say 'Warm',  and only 1.2 44Kw engines checked cold.

SEAT says Operating Temp' sometimes 'Hot'.  

 

Then VW say,  MUST add oil.   

 same engine Skoda has 'MAY add oil'.     this is what i mean,  Lost in translation.

 

VW USA have at least the Operating Temperature.

Lets forget the US Quart.

 

 

eg Below, 

has the correct instruction that is not in every owners manual, VW / Audi, SEAT, Skoda.  NOT, MAY, MUST.

Edited 1 March, 20188 yr by AwaoffSki

Ah, this is about checking the oil level. The important thing here is not so much the actual temperature as having the oil distributed throughout the system rather than all accumulated in the carter or bottom, no?

Is there any reason to expect that this will need to be done more frequently than on diesel engines? (Neither of our cars consumes any oil, even my 1.6TDI CR which is on a 2y maintenance cycle.)