1.0TSI 95: break-in, real-life fuel consumption and E85

[Ootohere]

Not important, just making the point about 'Trusting Owners Manuals'  do that at your risk.

 

& Oil consumption should not be an issue,

but then here in this thread it is being said that not 'Running in' can cause glazing and future high oil consumption, 

so it is all sort of tied together.

 

I am pointing out that 'carefully driven' from after hand over / PDI'd cars can have excessive oil consumption as well.

Check the Oil cold on collecting a car, then after at Operating Temperature, know where it shows on the dipstick, both cold and as should be checked, 

& do the same after Services, because some just get it all wrong.

 

& cars are transport, so they should not need engineering degrees / NVQ's / City & Guilds to own and drive them, 

just common sense.

[RJVB]

Yeah, I was planning to compare oil levels on the stick as measured following all the rules, and as measured "cold" in the usual parking spot.

 

> cars are transport, so they should not need engineering degrees / NVQ's / City & Guilds to own and drive them,  just common sense

 

Agreed, but sometimes a bit more can help (*educated* common sense? )

[Guest]

As Awaoffski says, the manuals vary in what they say. The mark 3 Fabia's need careful checking, they vary slightly from the earlier models. Don't let the oil go more than 2/3rds of the way down the cross hatched bit (as per the Mk3 Fabia diagram in the owners manual, it's different to the one Awaoffski has posted) otherwise engine damage will result. On the 1.0TSI it may be even more different. And don't wait for the oil level warning light to come on. It's often too late when that happens and you may have already suffered some damage to the motor. 

 

RJ, you asked some questions in one of your previous posts concerning bore glazing and why it happens when the motor is new and not at other times. Well, it can actually happen at anytime during the motors life. but mostly it happens at the start of the motors life during run in, usually if someone drives it irresponsibly or doesn't follow the break in instructions.  This is because when a motor is new, the cross hatching plato honing process leaves a 'soft' finish to the cylinder bore. The cylinder bores have to therefore wear in and harden. The piston rings are harder than the soft finish in the cylinder bore. When you drive the car, pushing down on the accelerator pushes the piston rings out towards the cylinder bore/s causing the piston rings to make actual contact with the sticking up bits of the cross hatching. in other words the oil film doesn't protect the sticking up bits of the crosshatching. The piston rings actually break off bits of metal from the crosshatching during this process eventually leading to a smoother finish. But if you follow the running in instructions, not a polished finish which is called 'glazing'. Of course this is all happening a small amount at a time, as it's designed to do. Gradually as you cover more and more miles, more and more of the cross hatching is worn away allowing the piston and rings to seat nice and snuggly in the cylinder bore. This increases compression, reduces oil consumption and pushes up the power output and efficiency of the engine. At the end of the initial running in process, you are aiming to leave as much of the cross hatching in place as possible without glazing the cylinder bore/s. The engineers who designed your engine will have calculated how much of the crosshatching will be left at the end of the initial running in period. After running in, the cross hatching is essential as it retains oil on the cylinder bore to help lubricate the piston and rings. Without it the engine wears out very quickly and will often break a piston or ring. But it's not just a physical thing that happens to the surface of the cylinder bores and crosshatching during running in. The cylinder bores have to harden and during this running in several chemical changes have to happen. These changes cannot be rushed. if you do try to rush things by not observing the running in instructions in the owners manual, the chemical changes to the surfaces of the cylinder bore/s won't happen and you end up with an engine that wears out much more quickly and will start to use oil early in it's life. To get it right you must avoid prolonged cruising at fixed throttle and fixed engine speeds. Vary the load on the engine and change the gears much more and you won't go wrong.

 

Remember, I'm talking about this process from an engineering point of view as to what actually happens. There's other really important stuff that happens to your engine components during running in too, but you don't actually have to know too much about the other processes. None of it's rocket science, so just follow the simple instructions in the manual. And remember, you don't have to drive it slowly, that's the worst thing you can do. Oh, one other thing. DO NOT rush to change the engine oil early! Keep the factory fill oil in the engine right up to the first service. This makes it easier for the engine to run in. Changing the oil early does no good whatsoever and may even encourage glazing of the cylinder bores (depends how you use the car at this point). I appreciate you may already know some of this stuff, but does no harm to repeat it. 

 

PS. don't worry about your fuel economy during running in. The engine won't give it's best until at least 5k miles has been covered. Since getting good fuel economy depends on a steady throttle and steady speed, it's totally the wrong thing to do to a new car and will lead to glazed cylinder bores.

 

 

Edited 1 March, 2018 by Estate Man

[Gerrycan]

In my limited exposure to vehicles I have only twice (outside this forum) heard reference to glazing issues and they both involved diesels.

1) Way back my brother-in-law used to run a garage doing MOTs which included a contract with a delivery company's Leyland Sherpa (very early common rail diesel).

They were subject to a lot of local urban runs and idling around London and they always  failed the MOT for emissions (presumably the visible smoke from exhaust test). The fix was simply an Italian tune up on the local motorway and the customer's drivers always remarked how well the vehicles performed after their vehicles MOT.

2) One of my jobs involved responsibility for a backup generator, the trouble was that it had been purchased for very old mainframe computer involving 3 phase electricity and numerous whopping great 100mb (not a misprint) disk drives that sounded on start up like the original Starship Enterprise going to warp 10.

The problem was that new replacement computers drew relatively insignificant power and I could not load the now oversized gen up enough to prevent glazing occurring.  I had to bring in a generator specialist with equipment to impose sufficient load to run it and clear the glazing. The gen specialist said it was not an uncommon problem as people often thought they were doing the right thing by buying a bigger generator and the subsequent constant low revs and light loading always created a glazing issue.

It had never occurred to me that a petrol engine might also have glazing issues, certainly not been aware of any problems and I'm far from being an aggressive driver. Might have to let my inner hoon have a drive.

By the way welcome back @Estate Man. Hope things are all good with you.

[RJVB]

Just for fun, here's the most frequent trip the car will be taking, maybe a week or 2 just after getting it, and then when classes start again: https://goo.gl/maps/5iu9roC25Zx

 

I'll be having a good look at the user manual for break-in instructions (would they print instructions that go against eco driving like "stay a bit more often in a lower gear a bit longer than you'd usually do", knowing how the computer tends to indicate gear shifts too early?)

 

This is something I don't expect to find: is it advisable to take a brand new car to leave on holidays? 

 

(Last time I took my own Skoda on a 3-week international trip it blew an injector and the light switch on the way back and we barely got it repaired before Italy shut down for the 15th of August holidays... my faith in the car still hasn't been completely restored!)

[Guest]

Hello Gerry, thanks for the welcome back. I'm feeling very much better thanks. No more eye or brain issues...well apart from the obvious brain issues that most folks spot straight away!!...lol/  Interesting you mentioned that about the generator engine. As you say, that's quite common to find glazed bores in those. In the one's I designed we used a rough honing process to help avoid the glazing, which is common practice now. Diesel generators are the worst for glazing though as they generally don't get anywhere near enough load to break through the oil film during running in and the diesel fuel itself also acts as a lubricant. Worse still, they operate mostly at fixed engine speeds for long periods. Speak again soon!

[Guest]

RJVB, yes just use your new car as you would any other car with regard to the manual's running in instructions. And really, don't worry about your fuel economy. Don't try to get the best fuel economy until it's run in. If you do you may compromise the engines future health. Oh...just enjoy driving the new car and don't over think the running in process.

[RJVB]

Oh, I don't worry too much about the economy, I know it's going to be higher at first, and generally higher than what we get now with the C3. My wife will be paying the fuel (her car), so she's a tad more concerned  

What I meant is more will they print instructions nowadays that aren't going to help short-term fuel economy, like staying a bit more in lower gear assuming that's not a bad idea. I guess I'll see.

 

Is there a reason to prefer better quality fuel during the first so many miles or does the "just do as usual" apply there too?

 

Writing this I think I remember a heated discussion 10y ago around the time I got my Guzzi, where someone mentioned redlining a brand new engine during a short ride. Struck me then as something quite stupid to do except possibly in a racing vehicle where you're going to have to rebuild the engine every few races anyway...

 

About glazing: is that the same thing which happens when you stick an oiled cast-iron pan in a hot (250+ degC) oven for an hour (aka seasoning)?

[Ootohere]

A bit similar to what seasoning does, but then good pans come done now that way from the factory.  Was on 'How do they do that'  this week on Quest..

I was always taught to season cast pans with salt & oil, but that was cleaning off the rust as well..

Online the glazing of  cylinders is well explained. 

But then there are all those millions of engines new every year and drivers that could not care less about how they are run in.

Edited 2 March, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[RJVB]

In my experience the factory seasoning rarely lasts, and that's just as well since you never know what oil they used.

Salt is for cleaning, or possible for the kind of seasoning the underside of your car gets in winter from road brine (salt is hygroscopic).

[the_raz]

This topic does not contain too much information about the original question regarding E85.

 

I have been driving 3 different TSI engines on a higher mix of e85/95E. The 1st generation 1.2 TSI  (105 PS) was able to handle upwards of 60 % ethanol in the fuel, the second generation 1.2 TSI (110PS) threw engine check light when the ethanol part was around 40%. The current 1.0 TSI 110 (or 115?) can finely handle around 45 % ethanol without problems, I have not gone higher yet. On this fuel mix, the engine sounds more sporty and the consumption increases somewhat, but I have not noticed any negative effects at all.

[RJVB]

Are you mixing with E10 - that would mean you're effectively running  some sort of E44 (0.55*10 + 0.45*85)?

 

Let's us know what they'll tell you at your next service if you keep using the mixture (I'm guessing this car is new enough to be under warranty still)

[the_raz]

Actually higher than that, closer to E60(0.66*85+0,33*10) at best. I have been running on this mix for several years in 3 different cars, and the service guys have not said anything. Of course I make sure that I don't get the CEL when the car is in for service. Once an MOT guy commented that the exhaust test showed extraordinary low CO2 values, but nothing else   I change the oil every ~12000 miles, ie once per year. 

[RJVB]

With fuel taxes soaring here (and set to soar even higher) the question of whether or not to disobey the user manual and start mixing in E85 is back on the table. So I'm checking in here to get some fresh/updated feedback, possibly an opinion from experts like @Offskior @Estate Man.

 

The car now has almost 10k km on the odo, and the last realworld mileage figure was about 5.8l/100km. That's with commutes and other typical more-or-less rushed trips of around 15-30km on country roads, but with temperatures above about 10 Celsius. We've seen the mileage drop steadily to 5.2l/100km during the (very warm) summer holiday period but I'm guessing that with the colder winter temps we'll be using even more fuel.

 

I've researched the E85 converter kit question a bit more, and as far as I understand 1) there is no homologated kit for the TSI engines yet 2) the sole supplier of such kits (BioMotors) isn't exactly reliable yet 3) engine warranty is to be taken over by the kit supplier while 4) no one really knows if those kits really do anything or do "the right thing".

 

The main selling points of a homologated kit (preserve warranty, avoid insurance problems, get a more advantageous vehicle registration) are thus moot, hence the mixing in E85 idea.

 

I understand that the injection system and engine are probably almost the same (all but the injection map?) as used for, say, the Brazilian market where E85 is the norm, and have seen some posts from fellow French drivers who suggest to start with a 50/50 mix and then increase the E85 content from there until you start noticing glitches or difficulties starting. But even 50% E85 is going to take almost 25% off the price of a fill-up (E85 is about half the price of E10 and NOT slated for increased taxing).

 

Am I missing anything here? And most importantly, what about warranty? You can of course avoid taking the car for MOT testing with an "illegal" fuel mixture but accidents and break-downs are a different matter.

Does the onboard computer keep a record of the kind of fuel used?

 

Thanks in advance for shining some more light on this!

[Ootohere]

Sorry i know nothing on E85.

Other than once put it in a Diesel Car with 50 miles only on it, well a friend did, i took the blame. 

 

 

(That required lots of new parts, tank drained etc etc.)

[RJVB]

Ouch, yeah, E85 and bio-diesel are not the same thing :)

[vc-10]

My dad once put a full tank of petrol in his old Mk.3 Golf TDI. Kept driving along, realised it had no power, got towed to the garage. Had the system flushed and filters changed, that was all it needed! Kept going for another 70k miles before my little brother crashed the poor thing! Never once needed engine repairs that car. Had done about 170-175k when he crashed it. 

[the_raz]

@RJVB

New cars are required to handle 10% ethanol in the fuel, so all fuel line parts are already ethanol proof. Actually, ethanol is less corrosive (hard on components) than regular petrol! The difference is in the engine maps, because ethanol requires a different ratio of air/fuel than petrol, and that is why "regular" cars cannot run on only E85.

Modern fuel injected cars have a lambda probe that measures the fuel/air ratio based on the exhaust, and adjusts the mixture accordingly. Thanks to this you can mix higher ethanol content in the fuel. The car will notice that more fuel per air is needed, and modify the air/fuel ratio to run properly. Based on the car's ECU, it will increase the fuel ratio more or less until it decides that the required correction is outside the allowed limits and throws an engine error. This still won't damage the car in any way, you just need to fill up with some petrol to get the correction to approved values and continue to run. I recommend getting an OBDII dongle to reset the CEL light when experimenting with E85, since a fuel system error might lead to failed MOT later on if the error is not cleared.

 

Generally any car should be able to handle 30-40% ethanol in the fuel, but some cars much more than that. My previous  car (Fabia III 1,2 tsi) gave CEL error when the mix exceeded 40 % ethanol, but the current car (Fabia III 1,0 TSI) can handle almost 60 % ethanol! That is 5,5 gallons of E85 and the rest (~4 gallons) petrol when the tank is more or less empty.