DMF to SMF on Fabia Vrs

[AlienVRS]

Hi there,

 

My modded fabia Vrs is showing the signs of EOL on the cluth or flywheel. It started to slip...

Since it is the original one and has been on the car for more than 230.000 Kms, I think it's safe to say, it's done it's job!!! 

 

So I'm interested in changing my DMF to an upgraded SMF. (Cheaper...)

 

Any thoughts on the subject ? Has anyone done this ? 

 

It has to support 180+ BHP and 420Nm of Torque... 

[sepulchrave]

Lots of people have done it, most regretted it because of the noise and vibration.

 

Since you are on a remapped standard turbo a new standard clutch will be just fine although the best option is the Sachs SRE clutch, you should also fit a new DMF, they are not as expensive as they used to be.

 

There is no need for SMF conversion unless you plan to fit a big turbo with big torque, a new clutch and DMF will last longer than the rest of car.

[duck]

I have switch to SMF from DMF and can confirm they are very noisy when stationary and in neutral, once moving you cannot notice any difference noise wise, I have no extra vibration.

 

Personally I don't care about the extra noise, it is a worthwhile trade off for me to get the reliability and strength of the SMF, I have had 2 x DMF in my VRS and they both became very noisy and cause vibration as they failed.

[AlienVRS]

On 12/05/2018 at 11:23, sepulchrave said:

Lots of people have done it, most regretted it because of the noise and vibration.

 

Since you are on a remapped standard turbo a new standard clutch will be just fine although the best option is the Sachs SRE clutch, you should also fit a new DMF, they are not as expensive as they used to be.

 

There is no need for SMF conversion unless you plan to fit a big turbo with big torque, a new clutch and DMF will last longer than the rest of car.

 

Hi.

Thx for the reply.

 

The need for the conversion has to do with money... that's all... Buying a new DMF and Clutch is too expensive for my pockets at this time.

On the ohter side... The noise and Vibration of the SMF bugs me.... I've seen youtube videos about it, and got me wondering...

[AlienVRS]

On 12/05/2018 at 12:20, duck said:

I have switch to SMF from DMF and can confirm they are very noisy when stationary and in neutral, once moving you cannot notice any difference noise wise, I have no extra vibration.

 

Personally I don't care about the extra noise, it is a worthwhile trade off for me to get the reliability and strength of the SMF, I have had 2 x DMF in my VRS and they both became very noisy and cause vibration as they failed.

Hi there.

Thx for the reply.

 

I too have changed the original KKK turbo with a Garret 1752-MFS (ex-VA). How much bhp and torque does your have ? I got to 182/420... I think its very good but can do much higher... it has to do with pressure... too much and enters in safe mode/turbo off. did you switch the maf/map sensor (from 2/3psi to 4/6psi) too for higher turbo pressure?

 

Yeah, my biggest concern has to do with the noise and vibration it creates... How's the feel for the SMF ? Notice any driveability issues ? 

 

[sepulchrave]

1 minute ago, AlienVRS said:

 

Hi.

Thx for the reply.

 

The need for the conversion has to do with money... that's all... Buying a new DMF and Clutch is too expensive for my pockets at this time.

On the ohter side... The noise and Vibration of the SMF bugs me.... I've seen youtube videos about it, and got me wondering...

 

This is crazy talk, most of the cost is in the work and the clutch kit itself, the difference between a new SMF and new DMF is really small by comparison.

[sepulchrave]

1 minute ago, AlienVRS said:

Hi there.

Thx for the reply.

 

I too have changed the original KKK turbo with a Garret 1752-MFS (ex-VA). How much bhp and torque does your have ? I got to 182/420... I think its very good but can do much higher... it has to do with pressure... too much and enters in safe mode/turbo off. did you switch the maf/map sensor (from 2/3psi to 4/6psi) too for higher turbo pressure?

 

Yeah, my biggest concern has to do with the noise and vibration it creates... How's the feel for the SMF ? Notice any driveability issues ? 

 

 

I didn't see this when I replied, yes, you need an expensive clutch for that turbo to be able to produce its full power and torque, and yes you do need a 4 bar MAP sensor.

 

Modifying cars properly cannot be done for cheap.

[AlienVRS]

5 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

 

This is crazy talk, most of the cost is in the work and the clutch kit itself, the difference between a new SMF and new DMF is really small by comparison.

 

Hi there.

Thx for the reply.

 

The work is being made by a team of mechanics friends of mine, who by the way are very good in what they do...

Maybe the price tag in the UK is somewhat diferent than in Portugal, where I live... It has to go with a new clutch, that's for sure... Now the SMF/DMF... I have yet to choose one...

[AlienVRS]

3 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

 

I didn't see this when I replied, yes, you need an expensive clutch for that turbo to be able to produce its full power and torque, and yes you do need a 4 bar MAP sensor.

 

Modifying cars properly cannot be done for cheap.

Hahaha... No worries...  

 

Yes a though it needed one... So my next buy is a new map sensor... It's not that expensive, too...

 

I've been modifying my car over the years, because money isn't abundant but I love to modifying soooo muchhh  

So it went step by step... And I mean baby steps... hehehe... but it's getting there. 

There aren't many Fabia vRS owners here in Portugal for me to change thoughts, only Ibiza and Audis.... with the similiar engine type... god I love my PD130... what a machine.

 

Thx for you input. It helped me a lot. Now searching for the MAP sensor €€€...  

[JWvrs25]

Im just in the middle of doing a dmf/clutch change, i found it was actually cheaper over here to buy the standard sachs dmf setup than an SMF conversion. Autodoc do the sachs set for £330 which isnt bad

Should probably say that money is roughly equivalent to the cost of a valeo SMF conversion kit

Edited 21 May, 2018 by JWvrs25

[duck]

7 hours ago, AlienVRS said:

Hi there.

Thx for the reply.

 

I too have changed the original KKK turbo with a Garret 1752-MFS (ex-VA). How much bhp and torque does your have ? I got to 182/420... I think its very good but can do much higher... it has to do with pressure... too much and enters in safe mode/turbo off. did you switch the maf/map sensor (from 2/3psi to 4/6psi) too for higher turbo pressure?

 

Yeah, my biggest concern has to do with the noise and vibration it creates... How's the feel for the SMF ? Notice any driveability issues ? 

 

 

I have around 240bhp and 350lbs torque and yes I have a 4 bar map sensor.

 

I am on my second SMF/clutch, the first had a paddle clutch and this did cause vibration at the clutch biting point if the engine revs were low and also bad vibration in reverse, I now have the darkside SMF and Sachs SRE clutch with organic disc and there is no vibration and driveability is no  different to the standard clutch, the clutch pedal is slightly heavier to depress but I don't notice it now unless I drive a standard VRS and notice the difference.

 

People say the Valeo SMF conversion is quiet and drives exactly like the standard DMF setup.

 

 

[sepulchrave]

28 minutes ago, duck said:

People say the Valeo SMF conversion is quiet and drives exactly like the standard DMF setup.

 

It's perfectly possible to have a SMF which is just as smooth as a DMF, the trouble is it'll weigh about twice as much and affect acceleration dramatically.

 

All diesels used to have massive SMF's before DMF's were invented.

 

In order to solve a problem first you must actually understand it.

[AlienVRS]

21 hours ago, duck said:

 

I have around 240bhp and 350lbs torque and yes I have a 4 bar map sensor.

 

I now have the darkside SMF and Sachs SRE clutch with organic disc and there is no vibration and driveability is no  different to the standard clutch, the clutch pedal is slightly heavier to depress but I don't notice it now unless I drive a standard VRS and notice the difference.

 

 

Nice setup. I wish I could get to the 200/220 Bhp without breaking the bank...  I've seen the SMF on the Darkside dev. site. Looks impressive... They have a DMF too... Cant find anything with that price tag here in Portugal, so I guess I have to get one from there...

I'm not interested in track days, It's just for ordinary day-to-day basis with the ocasional "push"  So I don't need the extra strenght of the SMF. wonder if the Darkside one you have, against the DMF version, compare... usage type, I mean... Will it wear out faster ?

[duck]

20 hours ago, sepulchrave said:

In order to solve a problem first you must actually understand it.

 

Was that an attempt at sarcasm?

 

The reason I said "People say the Valeo SMF conversion is quiet and drives exactly like the standard DMF setup" is because I have previously contacted Valeo technical support and asked for the weight of there SMF, they kindly told me the weight and its definitely not twice the weight of the standard DMF as I have also weighed one of those it is actually lighter than the standard DMF.

 

There are lots of reports online of the Valeo SMF conversion being similar to the DMF as far as noise and how the car drives, so either people are lying and the Valeo SMF is actually noisy or it is very similar to the DMF even thought the flywheel is lighter than the original DMF.

 

I suspect its to do with how Valeo designed the clutch damper (clutch plate springs) which is doing a good job and replicating the DMF function.

[duck]

14 minutes ago, AlienVRS said:

wonder if the Darkside one you have, against the DMF version, compare... usage type, I mean... Will it wear out faster ?

 

Darkside say the Sachs SRE with their SMF kit has an expected life of 50-60k miles, I've done 12k on it so far.

 

I have also had a Sachs DMF with the Sachs SRE in my VRS for 78k miles, the DMF failed but the Sachs SRE clutch was still ok.

 

With how I drive I am expecting the Sachs SRE and SMF to last at least 60k miles and hopefully much more than that.

 

 

[AlienVRS]

5 minutes ago, duck said:

 

Darkside say the Sachs SRE with their SMF kit has an expected life of 50-60k miles, I've done 12k on it so far.

 

I have also had a Sachs DMF with the Sachs SRE in my VRS for 78k miles, the DMF failed but the Sachs SRE clutch was still ok.

 

With how I drive I am expecting the Sachs SRE and SMF to last at least 60k miles and hopefully much more than that.

 

 

 

Hummm.... My DMF is still the original one... It has about 232k kms (That's about 144.500 miles)... Soooo I guess it  has done it's job...  

You said you do Track Days... That's something I know I won't do... only a couple ocasional "street racing"... 

 

I'll guess I'll go with the Darkside Sachs DMF SRE kit... and the map sensor... That's about 1k !!! in GBP!!! damnnnnnn  

 

[duck]

No I have never done a track day in my VRS, its just used on the road as an every day car.

 

[AlienVRS]

16 hours ago, duck said:

No I have never done a track day in my VRS, its just used on the road as an every day car.

 

Lol... sorry, I've jus read another post and the user has a very similiar pic... My bad

Thx for your input. Didn't know the diference between a SMF and a DMF... Now I know... and there are sooooo many possibilities...

 

Cheers.  

[sepulchrave]

17 hours ago, duck said:

Was that an attempt at sarcasm?

 

No.

 

Sarcasm doesn't work in writing because there's no vocal inflection available with which to denote it.

 

I was simply making the point that I understand how a harmonic damper works, most people don't, the rest of your remarks about the friction plate cush springs etc. don't make any sense.

[AlienVRS]

Darkside Developments has 2 choices of clutch. An Organic and a Sintered Disk. 

The Sintered one suports more power than the Organic one. What's your thoughts on this ? 

Will the Sintered wear out faster than the organic one ? Wich will be best for day-to-day use ?

 

Thx!  

[sepulchrave]

16 minutes ago, AlienVRS said:

Darkside Developments has 2 choices of clutch. An Organic and a Sintered Disk. 

The Sintered one suports more power than the Organic one. What's your thoughts on this ? 

Will the Sintered wear out faster than the organic one ? Wich will be best for day-to-day use ?

 

Thx!  

 

Sintered clutches are VERY grabby, horrible for a daily driver and totally unnecessary, go organic.

 

You know when you see race cars stall on the start line? That's a sintered paddle clutch for you. 

[AlienVRS]

5 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

 

Sintered clutches are VERY grabby, horrible for a daily driver and totally unnecessary, go organic.

 

You know when you see race cars stall on the start line? That's a sintered paddle clutch for you. 

 

Thx!  

Guess I'll go Organic, then... Don't want to stall in the midlle of the freeway in rush-hour...  

[stevobeavo]

I have the Sachs are dmf and sintered paddle clutch. Does take a bit of getting used to, pedel is quite heavy and it is a bit noisy but I can easily pull away just on the clutch. 

 

My Solid engine mounts might help though. 

[AlienVRS]

Well, thx to you guys. I've been adapting to the new clutch+flywheel...damn the thing is heavy... I've managed to stall the car in some intersections.. hahahaha  

But so far, so good. There's a noticeable grip I haven't felt before in my car... men, when the gears enter the car flyies.... yeahhh

 

So, thx for all the help in choosing this. I really apreciate that! Thx guys!  

 

No for the IC... Have to mout an FMIC... that gonna be a headache!!! Any thoughts on that ? Maybe I shoul onpen a new tread... :P 

[vindaloo]

On 22/09/2018 at 16:03, AlienVRS said:

Well, thx to you guys. I've been adapting to the new clutch+flywheel...damn the thing is heavy... I've managed to stall the car in some intersections.. hahahaha  

But so far, so good. There's a noticeable grip I haven't felt before in my car... men, when the gears enter the car flyies.... yeahhh

 

So, thx for all the help in choosing this. I really apreciate that! Thx guys!  

 

No for the IC... Have to mout an FMIC... that gonna be a headache!!! Any thoughts on that ? Maybe I shoul onpen a new tread... :P 

 

FMIC, start a new topic and have a quick look  at this one first.

 

 

Short answer is..... SEAT sport-like with fully welded construction, pipework kit, replace bumper bar with one from SEAT Ibiza and trim plastics to fit.

 

Much cheaper answer: Bolt an intercooler to the underside of the bumper bar, assemble your pipework kit. Main issue is the MAP sensor pipe. Though these seem to be available now. Takes time to figure it all out and more time to fit it. Could also go with the Ibiza bumper bar and maybe fit a larger FMIC and the Fabia bumper bar is a bit of a monster.