Is the WLTP 1.5TSI worse than pre-WLTP 1.5TSI?

[Crassus]

I have read reviews of new Q3 with the WLTP 1.5TSI and have come across, in several reviews, negative comments about the engine that were not made about the the Karoq 1.5TSI reviews several months ago. 

 

It seems like drivability has been negatively affected by the changes to the engine. 

 

 

Has anyone driven both engines?

 

Edited 27 September, 2018 by Crassus

[Ootohere]

That must be really bad then if you read some peoples experiences of 1.5TSI manuals before they are WLRP approved.

 

If Autocar or What Car gives them a bad review then that must be Pigs Flying by.

[OrionBG]

Correct me if I'm wrong but there should not be any difference in the engines of pre and post WLTP cars. the only difference should be in the numbers for emissions. 

Also at worse there will be the new GPF (petrol version of the DPF) and AdBlue for all Diesel engines, but this should not affect performance...

[SurreyJohn]

2 hours ago, OrionBG said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but there should not be any difference in the engines of pre and post WLTP cars. the only difference should be in the numbers for emissions. 

Also at worse there will be the new GPF (petrol version of the DPF) and AdBlue for all Diesel engines, but this should not affect performance...

 

Have they been remapped, to try and make the engine produce lower emissions, but has this happened at expense of altering torque curve

 

I am sure I have read comments (and I may be confusing them with 1.0 tsi) that DSG box cars seem to change up at lower revs.   So are the engines now set up to be optimised with 7 gear DSG which means lots of gear changing (to match the engine sweet spot) if you choose the manual.

[Crassus]

4 hours ago, SurreyJohn said:

Have they been remapped, to try and make the engine produce lower emissions, but has this happened at expense of altering torque curve

 

 

I think that the case. VAG must have made software changes to both the engine and gearbox. I don't recall reading the negativity below about the pre-WLTP engine. I like the 1.5TSI in the Octavia Estate I test drove a few months ago. This certainly makes me wary of ordering a 2019 Q3 or Karoq until I've driven the updates drivetrain. 

 

AutoCar 2019 Q3 1.5TSI review

"Firstly, the engine. The turbocharged 1.5-litre petrol with cylinder-on-demand (temporarily switching off cylinders at low load) works beautifully in the VW Golf – smooth, refined and effective. But in this Q3, it’s not the same story. In terms of power, the unit is perfectly sufficient for the car’s weight and in this sense, it’s likely to be the most sensible choice for an average Q3 driver.

 

It achieves 0-62mph in 9.2secs and moves along happily on urban roads, country lanes or the motorway. The sticking point is how that power is delivered. Even from low speeds, you can hear the gruff engine really having to work hard to achieve results. The sweet spot is between 2000 and 4000rpm but even then, you can notice turbo lag. Put your foot down above 4000rpm, and the engine revs in a deeply unhappy fashion.

 

This disappointing set-up is more noticeable when paired with the seven-speed dual-clutch Tiptronic gearbox, which regularly struggles to find its feet. It coasts along effortlessly, but any other time, you get the sense it’s always trying to change up – probably to help fuel consumption – and can’t respond appropriately when it unexpectedly goes down a gear or you’ve put the throttle down and it needs to, perhaps, jump two gears."

 

TopGear 2019 Q3 1.5TSI review

"It’s laggy below 3,000rpm and gritty-sounding above, so whatever gear you choose, you wish you were in another.  The new seven-speed DCT doesn’t help, failing to change smoothly.

It’s got a petrol particulate filter and meets the latest exhaust standards, and it’s also been set up for WLTP fuel measurements. The engineers were overwhelmed by all these new requirements and had to let the actual driving quality slip down the priority list."

 

WhatCar 2019 Q3 1.5TSI review

"The 1.5-litre engine seems to be noisier in the Q3 than in other VW Group cars. At idle and even when you're accelerating gently it's rather gruff, so the 2.0-litre is the smoother petrol option."

 

 

[xman]

Remember WLTP and RDE which is also being done according to VW press require NOx compliance with Euro regs, that under old NEDC tests were gamed away by VAG with gay abandon..

 

So they urgently needed to redesign software, maybe hardware to get it through the test, much head scratching and compromise on performance required......

[OrionBG]

All of those articles are about Q3 (I presume Audi Q3) and Audi's engine settings have always been slightly different than the rest of the VAG brands. Also, most of the Karoqs have different driving modes that should negate such issues once you switch to Sport mode...

[xman]

1 minute ago, OrionBG said:

All of those articles are about Q3 (I presume Audi Q3) and Audi's engine settings have always been slightly different than the rest of the VAG brands. Also, most of the Karoqs have different driving modes that should negate such issues once you switch to Sport mode...

 

I doubt the engine software is any different across marques/models, except yes maybe Audi throttle settings. Having to go to sports mode to overcome bad drivability, hmmm not really a good solution, or perhaps they don't use Sports mode in WLTP RDE tests?

 

The 1.5 tsi has always had something not quite right, idle revving, pull away issues etc. Not all cars though which makes it difficult to say if this isn't a quality or design issue.

 

Time will tell.

 

Initially,when I ordered my Superb, I was disappointed I couldn't get ot with a 1.5 tsi but now I'm glad I got the 1.4tsi instead.

 

 

[Ootohere]

They have managed to get WLTP Approved what they could and get the results.

Investigations seem to be on VW Group and others as to if they are getting higher results than they could have so that they can reduce them when required to in the not distant future.

Maybe just a conspiracy theory, but seems to be based on evidence.

http://volkswagen.co.uk/owners/wltp

VW need to get on with the Polo it looks like.

Edited 28 September, 2018 by Offski

[OrionBG]

7 minutes ago, xman said:

 

...or perhaps they don't use Sports mode in WLTP RDE tests? ...

 

 

 

 

I highly doubt it that they check all the modes...

I just hope they don't f**k up the 2.0TDI 150HP engine... That is the one I'll be getting.

Edited 28 September, 2018 by OrionBG

[Ootohere]

The questions will be coming again soon on the ECU for the Gearboxes / DSG's and is there still Defeat Device type software that is 'enabled' during WLTP / RDE.

 

World Wide Harmonisation not being accepted World Wide it seems.  Are some Countries a bit suspicious of EU Test Facilities?

 

 

???????

So what happens when Models / Drivetrains are WLTP Aprroved & RDE Results, and the vehicles are on the road, then Software Updates are required 

patches, changes to Engine Management and Gearbox Management, or Hybrid management, 

do the vehicles need Retesting after that.

New emissions maybe, as was required when in 2015/ 16 some VW Group vehicles had Implausible / Irregular C02 g/km test results from the old system.

http://autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-audi-and-seat-deny-co2-cover

 

Edited 28 September, 2018 by Offski

[Max48]

Certainly something have changed very much:

 

0 - 62 mph before with the manual gearbox 8.4 sec and with the dsg 8.6 seconds now it is 8.9 and 9.0 seconds.

 

some good news is that my 1.5 tsi is in Bremerhaven so its finaly on its way, but I am very dissapointed that the engine seems to be so different. I ordered a 1.5 tsi because off my test drive and now i dont get what i ordered. 

 

 

[xman]

I think the title is wrong, it should be

 

Are WLTP engines worse than pre WLTP engines, performance and /or drivability?

 

The answer must be Yes, otherwise there wouldn't be any need for all this malarkey.

[OrionBG]

I wonder what will persuade your dealer to load pre-WLTP software...  

Should be completely possible...

[Ootohere]

Not your 'Official Volkswagen Group Dealers',  no way Jose. 

 

Remappers maybe, the ECU's if locked will get unlocked, Remaps will be ready now and being tested, 

some Tuners will even get a Media Car or Demonstrators and do 'research' on those.

 

Maybe even hand the car back with 'New Engine Management on it'.    That is not 'Internet myth',  why buy your own car when the Manufacturers will lend one.

 

Beware though, Manufacturers / Dealers do use 'Trackers' and do investigate ECU's when lending cars.

Clearing the Sat Nav is not enough.

 

If you buy and own the car then fill your boots, mod and upgrade, and take the risks and void warranties on unproven products,

but if you have rented the car / lease and you **** it up, beware.

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 September, 2018 by Offski

[OrionBG]

1 minute ago, Offski said:

Not your 'Official Volkswagen Group Dealers',  no way Jose. 

 

Remappers maybe, the ECU's if locked will get unlocked, Remaps will be ready now and being tested, 

some Tuners will even get a Media Car or Demonstrators and do 'research' on those.

 

Maybe even hand the car back with 'New Engine Management on it'.    That is not 'Internet myth',  why buy your own car when the Manufacturers will lend one.

 

Beware though, Manufacturers / Dealers do use 'Trackers' and do investigate ECU's when lending cars.

Officially no... but under the table, everything is possible  

And in this case I don't suggest ECU tuning but just using the original pre-WLTP ECU software that is 110% safe for the car. It just needs to be registered once and then the sky is the limit... But yeah... having to do all that just to get a car to the condition it was supposed to be in to begin with is not an ideal solution...

[Ootohere]

Everything is possible.

Tuners knew about the Defeat Devices before any University in the USA.   

The Authorities got all the Software stuff about Bosch from 'Tuners'.

 

 What a remap, you can get one, want a snide Rolex that is possible as well, Kamagra, that will be as safe as Viagra..

 

 

 

Edited 28 September, 2018 by Offski

[Ootohere]

There used to be VW Group Dealerships in the UK that would do a REVO remap.

 

There are Tuners in Europe that will and sell tuning boxes and provide warranties.

Price in the UK a few hundred pound and buyer beware, read the T&C's, in some European Countries where there is Warranties worth something 

and maybe Tuners working with Manufacturers, add a thousand maybe for the same remap.

http://abt-sportsline.com/tuning

 

Edited 28 September, 2018 by Offski

[Crassus]

2 hours ago, Max48 said:

Certainly something have changed very much:

 

0 - 62 mph before with the manual gearbox 8.4 sec and with the dsg 8.6 seconds now it is 8.9 and 9.0 seconds.

 

 

WOW. I didn't believe you but after looking up the spec sheet I do.  

 

I wasn't aware that the effects of changes would be that considerable. If the post WTLP 1.5TSI leaves a lot to be desired in the Q3, imagine how it will perform in the Kodiaq?

 

Congrats to those with a pre-WLTP engine. 

Edited 28 September, 2018 by Crassus

[Ootohere]

Someone will no doubt actually time their vehicle from 0-62 mph and see what it actually does and not go by 'Manufacturers times'.

 

Manufacturers never show 0-100 km with each seat filled with an average weight adult and luggage in the boot of vehicles.

Maybe someone can time their car doing that.

 

Car Buyer / Carwow, Honest John, or Autocar / Whatcar might do, easy enough....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 September, 2018 by Offski

[Max48]

But of course the VW group have test rigs that show the 0 - 62 mph accurate and they have confirmed in their new specs that the new wltp 1.5 tsi engine is slower 0 - 62 mph. The question is why, and all the people buying the Karoq this winter and delivery this autumn need to know...

Edited 28 September, 2018 by Max48

[The Zee]

2 hours ago, Max48 said:

Certainly something have changed very much:

 

0 - 62 mph before with the manual gearbox 8.4 sec and with the dsg 8.6 seconds now it is 8.9 and 9.0 seconds.

 

some good news is that my 1.5 tsi is in Bremerhaven so its finaly on its way, but I am very dissapointed that the engine seems to be so different. I ordered a 1.5 tsi because off my test drive and now i dont get what i ordered. 

 

 

I don't think half a second will make much difference to my life. I might be old but not that close to the grave that I am worried about losing half a second.

[Ootohere]

Max48,

Do you drive to work inside on a test rig, or even outside on a test rig?

 

 

Edited 28 September, 2018 by Offski

[Max48]

1 minute ago, The Zee said:

I don't think half a second will make much difference to my life. I might be old but not that close to the grave that I am worried about losing half a second.

 

I agree but i did not know about this when i ordered the car, i ordered the car without no knowledge that the wltp 1.5 engine would be different....

[xman]

2 hours ago, Offski said:

 

So what happens when Models / Drivetrains are WLTP Aprroved & RDE Results, and the vehicles are on the road, then Software Updates are required 

patches, changes to Engine Management and Gearbox Management, or Hybrid management, 

do the vehicles need Retesting after that.

 

 

I think you found Mr Loophole's solution for VW!