Until today I had been bemused by all those that have seperate winter wheels and tyres, I am an old school driver and have never had a problem driving within the vehicles limits in snow or ice, I am always the one that can drive peoples vehicles out when they get stuck and that was always the case with my MK1 Octavia.

 

I have however witnessed several people unable to pull away on a flat surface in more modern vehicles, one was a colleague in a Renault or Peugeot, I got it onto the cleared tarmac for her but it was by no means easy and the lectronic systems especially the parking brake were working against me.

 

Now having a MK2 1.9TDi 105hp I had the overwhelming impression that I no longer had a connection through the vehicle to the 4 contact points with the road especially with the electric power steering.

 

Today we have reasonably deep snow melting to slush but not frozen, the car is fecking useless, it will not drive up the very shallow slope of my drive which its predecessor would laugh at even when covered in black ice, later on it would not even pull away on the flat on snow, there may have been 1/2" of build up in front of the rear wheels which was enough to stop it.

 

Switching off the ASR certainly helped but it was still by far the worse vehicle I have ever dealt with in these circumstances, worse than the 2 former prize winners, a Marina 1.8 TC axle tramp champion and a 911 with Carlos Fandango wheels and bald tyres.

 

Even when I had bald tyres on the MK1 it was 100 times better, and I never had new tyres, always part worns, this vehicle has new Michelin Energy Saver Plus tyres, they are inflated to the top limit for economy and I will deflate them tomorrow but can they alone be the cause, is it that modern vehicles really need winter tyres and what has changed so much?

 

Also I dont like the ASR, it cuts the engine power, excessively in my mind, I dont know if it ever applies the brakes to the wheel without traction to transfer the torque to the other wheel through the differential, I am pretty sure the MK1 did as it would make a horrible graunching noise like the transmission lunching itself when a tyre broke traction pulling out from a side road but at least it got the power down, this MK2 just seems to do nothing, it was especially apparent when accelerating on the snow, on my return journey I switched off the ASR and just modulated the throttle when needed, I had 10 times as much traction.

 

Whic brings me to the ABS, that too just shudders and teh car sails forwards with no perceptible retardation, its not the engine pushing against it because I also tried declutching, I had an 87 Sierra XR4x4 that would put the full engine power against the braking on snow, you could stand on the pedal and it would never stop unless you declutched, the MK2 Octavia feels like that even when declutched and I cant see a way of switching off the ABS, is there a way, perhaps removal of a fuse?

 

Please tell me its simply the tyres because how on earth did we end up in a situation with a vehicle that cannot be driven during normal winter weather?

I think I wider tyres have something to do with it. 205 wide is sports/touring territory in the old days it was 195/185 tyres or smaller. Assume you have 205/55/16 on your mk2?

I think so, they are 1" larger diameter I think than the MK1, that may have had 196/65 R15's, my memory is not what it was.

 

Wish I had kept the wheels and tyres now, didnt give it a thought at the time.

EDL (electronic diff lock) is part of ESP/ESC (electronic stability program/control). At a guess, you have a MK70 ABS pump that doesn't support ESP so all ASR can do is drop engine output rather than move the power across the front axle. Pulling the ABS fuse(s) will stop the ABS kicking in and possibly ASR as the wheel speed sensors all connect to the ABS module. Obviously you'll get many fault codes and warning lights...

 

TBH, I didn't have any issues in last years snow with my MK2 leaving ASR and ESP/ESC enabled. The tyres are also 205/55r16 but they are all season tyres

 

Other than that, it sounds like your summer tyres are just rubbish in snow!

 

 

 

If the ABS is kicking in your tyres have no traction and are sliding, and pretty dramatically by what you say. I don't think I would be able to do a better job at coming off the brake and back on again than the ABS can. So I would think your tyres may be more at fault than the car. I would also think your insurance wouldn't be impressed at deactivating the ABS!

 

Hope you manage to improve the handling.

 

I had no problems in mk3 Octavia 225/45 17 Michelin cross-climates last winter in the snow.

49 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I think so, they are 1" larger diameter I think than the MK1, that may have had 196/65 R15's, my memory is not what it was.

 

Wish I had kept the wheels and tyres now, didnt give it a thought at the time.

Unfortunately the bolt pattern is not compatible mk1 to mk2 from memory. I came from a golf tdi with 185/60/14 or similar. First snow in winter 09. Car just slid just releasing the clutch from standstill. I quickly fitted Nokian all seasons to a spare set of wheels. Had them on every year since. So much better. 

I've never had a problem with my PD105 on 225/45/17 budget summers.

 

Granted ABS is more of a hindrance in ice/snow, leave a margin then some but the ASR does a fine job of keeping momentum up Scottish grades despite being bellied out on snow.

 

The ASR on our models only drops engine output, ESP is the system that can apply braking for stability.

Edited 23 January, 20197 yr by MicMac

Does the vehicle not have ESP then? My MK1 certainly had it, occasionally as my ringpiece sensor sent an alarm contraction on a slippery roundabout if i looked quickly at the speedo I could see the light come on briefly and the car would not step out of line, it was pretty seamless.

 

I did 20 hot laps of the Croix en Ternois circuit in it, coming out of one hairpin I could feel the traction control cutting in so I switched it off, it was just one button for all the systems whatever they were, after that I was not able to turn in as well and clip the apexes that I had clipped with great precision before that, I was very impresssed with the system especially that I was not even aware of it working and it was a better driver than I, hard to accept but true.

 

I am not even sure this car has ESP and the traction control seems rubbish compared to the MK1, OK in normal conditions, a bit damp, using too much throttle but seems hopeless in the snow unless its the tyres.

 

Tomorrow I will deflate the tyres and have a test session and then disconnect the ABS, if no improvement it has to be the tyres, it will be quite a shock but it is the first time that I have had proper expensive and supposedly energy saving rubber.

What is ASR, ESP and ESR?

 

I think ESP is electronic stability program, the one that brakes the inside wheel(s) to combat understeer etc, my MK1 had that and only one switch off button, my MK2 has only one switch off button, cant recall the letters, how many systems does my vehicle have and does the switch turn off one or more of them please?

AFAIK only the MK2 VRS has ESP. my 06 L&K only has ABS (non selectable) and ASR which can be switched.

So I think that the ESP is the same as ESR, thats clearly doing its job as discreetly as on the MK1, I think the difference is in the traction control, my MK1 had mechanical injection so I dont think there was any power regulation going on, I think it was all done by the front brakes which would explain the horrible graunching and sometimes thudding sounds but in braking the wheel which was losing traction the torque was increased to the one with grip, I would prefer the noises and bangs to not being able to get across a junction or to drive away on a flat snow covered surface.

 

On older vehicles bogged in mud I would often left foot brake to give a similar effect, not as good but it would effectively split the torque equally between the driven wheels, I tried that today but with the engine power removed it did nothing.

 

Maybe a change of tyres will alleviate things but I have to say I am really dissapointed with the later vehicle for its lack of feel and lack of competence in snow, it will be a disaster on ice.

Out of curiosity, what happens when you move off on a slippery slight uphill incline and floor it in first once you have movement?

Edited 24 January, 20197 yr by MicMac

9 hours ago, J.R. said:

What is ASR, ESP and ESR?

 

Oh no... I don't want to play the TLA (three letter acronym) game...

 

This following is taken from the back of the November 2012 Octavia brochure so it might not be 100% correct for earlier cars. It's also quite long...

 

ABS: the anti-lock braking system prevents the wheels from locking during heavy or emergency braking, enabling the vehicle to remain steerable. When braking, wheel speed sensors measure the road wheel speed and should one or more wheels start to lock the system reduces brake pressure to that wheel.

 

Elements of the ABS System :
• Dual Rate Vacuum Brake Boosters: increases brake effort under emergency braking conditions.
• EBC: Electronic brake control. The engine brake torque control regulates the power supply by intervening with the engine management system.
• EBD (aka EBV): Electronic Brake Distribution automatically distributes different pressures to the front and rear brakes to stop the rear wheels from locking up under heavy braking. It also compensates for loaded and unloaded vehicles therefore doing away with the need for a Load Sensing Valve on the rear axle.

 

ESC: Electronic Stability Control is designed to stabilise the dynamic handling response of the vehicle by counteracting any tendency towards oversteer or understeer. The ESC constantly compares the actual movement of the vehicle with predetermined values and according to the situation ESC reacts by braking each wheel individually (according to direction of slip) and automatically adjusting the engine’s output.

 

Elements of ESC system:
• ASR: anti-slip regulation traction control ensures the Octavia’s stability when pulling away or accelerating. If the engine power or torque being transmitted to the drive wheels is too great, for example on a slippery road surface, engine torque is automatically reduced until optimum road holding returns, thus preventing wheelspin. A light indicates whether the ASR system is on. It can be manually switched off.
• MSR: the engine torque control system recognises when the wheels are subject to too much slippage and regulates the power supply by intervening in the engine management system. This prevents wheelspin when, for example, changing down on a smooth or wet road surface. MSR is a constituent part of the ASR system.
• EDL: the electronic differential lock continually compares the rpm of the drive wheels, and if it identifies a difference between them which could lead to an individual wheel spinning, for example if the two wheels are on different types of surface or accelerating on wet leaves, the system brakes the wheel affected until uniform rpm of all drive wheels is restored.
• HBA: Hydraulic brake assistant increases the optimal build-up of brake power. It ensures complete use of the brake system potential, thus shortening the braking distance.
• HHC: Hill hold control allows for a safe hill start by holding the brake for a small amount of time, reducing the risk of unintentional reversing or roll back.
• TPM: Draws the driver’s attention to any pressure loss in any of the tyres. Early warning can prevent damage from occurring as a result of an under inflated tyre or a defect that radically changes the cars behaviour and driveability.
• DSR: Driver Steering Recommendation – in a crisis situation it helps the driver stabilize a skid by making a slight intervention in the steering. 
• ESBS: Electronic Stability Brake System – targeted interventions in the braking process improve the handling of a car as it brakes when passing round a bend and keeps it from veering. 
• AFM: records and assesses all available data about the journey to optimize the ESC system’s reactions, which can thus be adapted to any driving style and the current vehicle payload.
• XDS: XDS is an advanced electronic differential lock linked to a sophisticated Electronic Stabilisation Control (ESC) system, designed to maximise traction and improve responses. In moments of fast cornering it provides pressure on the inside wheel to prevent wheel spinning. The result is better traction and a reduction of any tendency to under steer. The driver will experience a more agile, precise and calming driving performance with better traction out of bends.

 

From the same brochure, standard manual cars had:

- ABS, MBA, MSR, ASR (without EDL)

The greenline II, 4x4, Scout, L&K and all DSG's had:

- ESC incl ABS, EBV, MSR, ASR, EDS, HBA, DSR

The vRS had:

- ESC incl. ABS, EBV, MSR, ASR, EDS, HBA, DSR, XDS

 

The option to upgrade from the standard ABS to full ESC was about £400.
 

Assuming you're still reading, to figure out which you have you just need a VCDS autoscan:

- ESC requires MK60 or MK60EC1 ABS pumps

- ABS only will use MK70 or MK70m ABS pumps

 

The MK60 uses a separate module with a number of accelerometers to figure out if the car is following the path expected given steering angle. The MK60EC1 does the same but the accelerometers are now inside the ABS module. Both versions have an extra 4 solenoids when compared to MK70 pumps, I believe these allow the ABS pump to apply the brakes rather than moving just moving pressure round or preventing them locking.

 

If your MK1 did have EDL functionality, it would certainly give an advantage when moving off in snow

 

11 hours ago, J.R. said:

So I think that the ESP is the same as ESR, thats clearly doing its job as discreetly as on the MK1, 

You mean that ESP just kills the throttle when it detects wheel spin?

2 hours ago, langers2k said:

 

Really informative post

 

What.. no TCS?

11 hours ago, MicMac said:

Out of curiosity, what happens when you move off on a slippery slight uphill incline and floor it in first once you have movement?

 

I would have to be able to move off first to answer that

 

When it happens pulling out of junctions or accelerating up an incline with mud or gravel it cuts the power so that no acceleration is possible, in the MK1 it would stop the wheelspin but still accelerate albeit less so through the wheel with traction. Or at least thats what it always felt like over 10 years of driving, at low speeds there would be horrible graunching like the gearbox tearing itself apart.

 

TBH I never really thought much about it aside from the graunching, its only with the MK2 which seems totally useless (unless its the all the fault of the tyres) that I have reflected on how the MK1 behaved.

 

Prior to the MK1 I had many powerfull FWD vehicles without traction control and could always drive them anywhere in any conditions, without sounding brash I know that i am better than many in that respect probably from having driven really old cars and competing in off road trials, its possible that the MK1 with wider tyres than my previous FWD vehicles would have been a disaster with the traction control switched off, all I do know is that my MK2 is a disaster with it activated.

 

For the first time in my life I am concerned about driving in these conditions, doing my regular trips which cross many villages and roads that are not cleared or salted, before now a snowfall was an excuse to go out and play!

 

Thats how dissapointed I am it really is not a drivers car and has confirmed my desire to buy an older vehicle and never touch anything more modern (mine is 13 years old!) if I keep it, and driving aside it has a lot of redeeming features I will have to invest in winter wheels.

 

Can anyone tell me what search terms to use looking for compatible alloy or steel rims on E-bay?

 

Stud pattern width and offset, the latter I know is cast on the inside of my alloys, ET50 I think, from what has been said narrower wheels would be an advantage and cheaper for tyres, or perhaps a different diameter with the same stud pattern, what do you suggest?

Edited 24 January, 20197 yr by J.R.

ASR, TC, EDL. XDS, XDS+,  things move on and with VW Group it gets lost in the 'descriptions; then the translation from German to Czech, to Spanish to English to US English to Chinese and to what ever language.

Then drivers not knowing what there car has does not help...

42 minutes ago, bspman said:

What.. no TCS?

 

Heh, I believe TCS=ASR for the list above

 

14 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Stud pattern width and offset, the latter I know is cast on the inside of my alloys, ET50

 

I believe these are correct for a 2012 car but I'd expect the 2006 to be the same or very similar:

- Steel 6.0J x 15" ET47 with 195/65 R15 91H tyres (91T on the 1.4 16v, 91V on the 1.4 TSI)

- Alloy 6.5J x 15" ET50 with 195/65 R15 91V tyres

- Steel 6.5J x 16" ET50 with 205/55 R16 91V tyres

- Alloy 6.5J x 16" ET50 with 205/55 R16 91V tyres

 

All are a 5x112 stud pattern with a 57.1mm centre bore.

 

It's not unusual to drop the speed rating on winter tyres and add a warning to the cluster although H is still 130mph

Thankyou very much for that and all the usefull info regarding ABS modules etc.

 

One last question for my Ebay searching for rims, what other popular VAG vehicles have the same wheels? Golf? Leon? etc.

Golf mk5 /6, Audi A3 (8P) and Seat Leon MK2 wheels will fit or you can run Michelin cross climates instead.

 

It's your tyres causing you the issues as my Michelin premacy tyres were also useless in the winter and a good set of winter tyres or all seasons you will be laughing

14 hours ago, wiilydog said:

Golf mk5 /6, Audi A3 (8P) and Seat Leon MK2 wheels will fit or you can run Michelin cross climates instead.

 

It's your tyres causing you the issues as my Michelin premacy tyres were also useless in the winter and a good set of winter tyres or all seasons you will be laughing

I concur with @wiilydog I made the investment on OEM Octavia 2005 wheels then shod them with Nokian WRG2 all seasons on one car. Brilliant in the white stuff. Pain to store and swap over. But it’s now the norm for me. I also now have 2 sets of black steels with Nokian Weatherproof and Contis. Don’t get me started on storage now. 

So all 3 of our cars have them fitted. I did toy with true Goodyear Vector all Seasons as they are a decent price not far off summer ones for the OHs car on one axle. This was a compromise for me to get traction on the front. I am also thinking of doing the same again. Based on the low miles on that car it makes sense to get something that does the job all year around. 205/55/16  GY Vector All season the Gen2 are available online without fitting for about £55. @J.R. the decision is ultimately yours depending on your circumstances and also what suits. There are wheels in the classifieds from @octimark if that helps. 

 

Just to add. Steel wheels are like gold dust too. I have been trying to replace a couple i have and they are nearly as much as alloys, pound here or there. 

The look of black steels does let cars down. I try and ignore that. 

Means they can be as dirty as the car at this time of year and require less cleaning of brake dust because I cannot see it. 

I hope you find what you are looking for. 

Edited 25 January, 20197 yr by gav_is_con
Typo

Wanted ad in Briskoda.  Or look on Ebay for steel wheels. 

  Odd that they are like gold dust,

& as to the same price as alloys, that is OK because VW Group used alloys are cheap and OK to put winter tyres on.

 

Briskoda 'for sales' often has Winter Wheels / Tyres advertised for sale and for some crazy reason they are often those that fit various Skoda models..

I took my VRS up the cairngornes when there was 6"+ of snow when I got to the top. Sencible driving and I had no problems with Goodyear efficent Grips. Id say your issue is simply your are expecting too much from your normal road tyres and best to go for Winter tyres if you feel you will have a lot of snow.

I come from a country where snow is a common thing for a rather long period. It's a well known thing that summer tyres ARE NOT suitable for such winter. Not at all. It doesn't matter if it's MK1 Octavia, MK2 Octavia, some sports car, 4x4 Range Rover or some old Audi A80 Quattro. I've seen quite a lot of occasions with driving with summer tyres in winter (snow came faster than the tyres were on) and usually it looks funny - wheels spinning and not moving, very poor braking etc.

So, your text about being superior in the snow with the old car sounds like boasting. Maybe you hade some tyres that were more or less suitable for winter and now not. Anyway, you shouldn't expect much from car with summer tyres in snowy weather.

 

In certain snow slush car handling might be difficult even with winter tyres.

Edited 27 January, 20197 yr by Jevpls