FABIA VRS MkII - SPARK PLUG FAIL - NEW ENGINE - HELP / ADVICE

[timlister2001]

Hi all,

 

I know there are many stories with regards to spark plug failure but I'm looking for some advice on where I currently stand with Skoda - details below.

 

I've owned 2 new Skodas from new, each purchased from the Hughes dealership in Aylesbury.

 

My first Octavia VRS was plagued with EML issues (cat below efficiency). It spent numerous visits back to the dealership with them never solving the problem. They had no idea what was causing the fault despite changing a vast amount of parts at my cost. Octavia was fully maintained service wise via the dealership.

 

I sold the car in 2013 and purchased a new Fabia VRS (CTHE). Again fully service maintained by the dealership. Last weekend the Fabia developed a miss fire in cylinder 3. I called the dealership who advised to call AA which I did. Following day the car was booked into Skoda Aylesbury. Diagnostic was broken down spark plug (pic attached) and cylinder damage. Garage have stated £660 to remove head to see what further damage has occurred and recommend a full new engine at a cost of £5700. When I challenged back and ask why the plug had failed in this way they stated they did not know and have never seen this happen before. So i'm suppose to pay for a new engine on a 6 year old car when you can't even tell me why its happened??

 

I registered a formal complaint with Skoda Uk (executives office) who are currently investigating the matter however they have relayed the same that they will not know whats caused it and it is highly likely i will have to pay for the engine as the car is out of warranty.

 

I have asked NGK to comment who advised me the following-

 

The ground electrode appears to have suffered from excessive heat and partial melting. As a spark plug produces no heat, the source of the excessive combustion chamber heat would need to be ascertained to prevent a repeat running condition from occurring.

Possible causes of over-heating of a spark plug are listed below;

a) Incorrect fueling/ignition timing. A mixture too lean or over-advanced ignition timing can lead to excessively high temperatures within the combustion chamber.

b) Incorrect/unsuitable plug selection for vehicle. The OE part number is only partially visible on the image you provided. If the full number reads '03C 905 601 B', then we can confirm an NGK SIZFR6B8EG is supplied as the spark plug for the Skoda production line for a 2013 Fabia VRs. However, if the vehicle has been subjected to engine re-mapping/modifications, then any alteration from the manufacturers production specification can bring into question the suitability of any of the components fitted to a vehicle. Increases in engine power output will lead to higher combustion chamber temperatures.

c) Incorrect spark plug tightening torque. Insufficient tightening of a spark plug can disrupt the heat path from the spark plug thread to the cylinder head thread. Over-tightening can create a distortion within the spark plug body, again leading to a disruption of the heat path through the spark plug to the cylinder head.

 

My question is how can Skoda justify billing me for a new engine on a 6 year old car that is fully serviced by them without giving me the root cause of the plug failure? Do I have any legal grounds to pursue this through court?

 

Car details:

Purchased 2013

Mileage: 60,000

Full dealer service history costing over £1500 in total

Plugs changed by dealer as per service schedule at 37,278 on 02/12/2016 (one month out of parts warranty)

DSG update completed

07/08/2017 car had similar running issues and Skoda diagnosed Lambda sensor and Map sensor. Both removed, cleaned and error codes deleted.

 

I have just asked Skoda for the torque figures for the remaining plugs to confirm them with NGK. Plugs fitted are correct type as confirmed by NGK.

 

Any help, advice on how to tackle this with Skoda would be much appreciated.

 

Tim

 

 

 

[Ootohere]

Just a recent thread, like the many since 2010 and 2012 with CTHE's.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/460501-spark-plugs

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/421161-vrs-spark-plug-tip-missing

 

OEM Plugs were and are rubbish and have been since Skoda started fitting in 2012.

Why owners go to DENSO or Bosch.  

Engine issues are well documented.  

 

The NGK / OEM plugs are not good for 40,000 miles, sometimes the one as you found not even for 20,000 miles.

NGK should know of how many plugs have failed globally in 1.4 TSI /TFSI 132-136kw Twinchargers in one cylinder, 

surely VW Group have discussed it and all NGK employees can not be unaware of the issues,,,

 

You have a fight on your hands and Cheri Cornish Executive Office @ Skoda UK who is the Resolution Manager will likely say 'tough titty' in a nicer way.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/291585-warning-on-spark=plugs-14-tsi-cave-vrs-cthecheck-the-spark-plugs

 

Edited 26 January, 2019 by Skoffski

[Ootohere]

SKODA AYLESBURY must have Deaf Dumb & Blind employees or just maybe liars. A bit like Skoda UK Customer Services and Senior Executives.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/294051-cave-cthe-14tsi-just-reply-please-if-you-have-had-an-engine-replaced

 

[Sittingbull]

Tim,

 

I feel for you fella. Someone at the dealership should have advised you not to leave the oem spark plugs in for that length of time or mileage, they simply cannot hack it so to speak as evidenced by the countless posts on this forum. Has your car been using oil at all during the period?

 

As for getting SUK onboard with your battle, you'll need real persistence to go with your full dealer service history, the kind of persistence that is prepared to go to the press and so on, and so much that SUK know you will. You shouldn't have to fight so hard given they know how many hundred have been affected since launch, these problems are now 9 years old, ten if you count the same issues with SEAT.

 

It is possible to have your engine rebuilt by a specialist for less than the cost of a new engine, some of the folk on here including the grinch have had theirs forged after original engines failed.

 

I wish you good luck.

[timlister2001]

28 minutes ago, Sittingbull said:

Tim,

 

I feel for you fella. Someone at the dealership should have advised you not to leave the oem spark plugs in for that length of time or mileage, they simply cannot hack it so to speak as evidenced by the countless posts on this forum. Has your car been using oil at all during the period?

 

As for getting SUK onboard with your battle, you'll need real persistence to go with your full dealer service history, the kind of persistence that is prepared to go to the press and so on, and so much that SUK know you will. You shouldn't have to fight so hard given they know how many hundred have been affected since launch, these problems are now 9 years old, ten if you count the same issues with SEAT.

 

It is possible to have your engine rebuilt by a specialist for less than the cost of a new engine, some of the folk on here including the grinch have had theirs forged after original engines failed.

 

I wish you good luck.

 

The Fabia has always used oil, roughly 5l per 10k. Dealership said it’s normal for the engine to use oil at this level.

 

I feel completely let down by the dealer considering the money I’ve spent with them over the past 12 years. The service levels are shocking

[xman]

At my dealer they don't put in VW branded plugs but NGK branded. I know as I request to return everything changed at a service, except oil filters which I mark with sharp tool to check. It would be interesting to know if TPS supply VW brand or OE brand. I suspect it has to be OE branded.

Which raises the question, were the plugs really changed at 37k?

 

 

Edited 26 January, 2019 by xman

[Ootohere]

@Sittingbull   Can tell you about muppets at dealerships saying 5 litres in 10,000 miles is OK because the Owners Manual says 'May use  0.5 litre in 1,000 km;

then some say 1 litre in 1,000 miles is OK.

 

The Dealership Employee should have know to be recommending an Official Oil Consumption test, then that might of meant 'New Oil Spray Jets' and a software update would have been tried.

 

You have a lot to discuss with 'Cheri Cornish' the Resolution Manager. 

 

 

This one was wrong, oil does not weigh 1,000 grams a litre.

[Ootohere]

PS

Some Audi Master Techs put in DENSO plugs to 1.4TFSI 136kw Twinchargers because NGK's developed plugs for the engines were burning tips off, 

and VW Group surely know that.

That was how i first found out about them, from a Master Tech with Audi UK. 

Edited 26 January, 2019 by Skoffski

[xman]

4 hours ago, timlister2001 said:

Diagnostic was broken down spark plug (pic attached) and cylinder damage. Garage have stated £660 to remove head to see what further damage has occurred and recommend a full new engine at a cost of £5700. When I challenged back and ask why the plug had failed in this way they stated they did not know and have never seen this happen before.

 

They don't have to strip the head, just use a bore scope and do a compression test. 

[Ootohere]

& its not £5,700,

only when they are padding the Quote for the Warranty Claims or to get a high price for the Gesture Payment.

 

This member had a Skoda Extended Warranty & Skoda UK screwed him.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/440772-nightmare-fabia-vrs-engine-replacement-needed

 

Edited 26 January, 2019 by Skoffski

[timlister2001]

4 hours ago, Skoffski said:

Just a recent thread, like the many since 2010 and 2012 with CTHE's.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/460501-spark-plugs

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/421161-vrs-spark-plug-tip-missing

 

OEM Plugs were and are rubbish and have been since Skoda started fitting in 2012.

Why owners go to DENSO or Bosch.  

Engine issues are well documented.  

 

The NGK / OEM plugs are not good for 40,000 miles, sometimes the one as you found not even for 20,000 miles.

NGK should know of how many plugs have failed globally in 1.4 TSI /TFSI 132-136kw Twinchargers in one cylinder, 

surely VW Group have discussed it and all NGK employees can not be unaware of the issues,,,

 

You have a fight on your hands and Cheri Cornish Executive Office @ Skoda UK who is the Resolution Manager will likely say 'tough titty' in a nicer way.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/291585-warning-on-spark=plugs-14-tsi-cave-vrs-cthecheck-the-spark-plugs

 

 

So I will have to accept what the outcome is from the exec office? Is there no other avenues after the exec office? 

I feel a like it’s whatever they say goes. They have refused to do any further investigation work to identify why this has happened. Due to cost apparently. I very much doubt I will get the torque figures from the remaining plugs - fobbed off I should imagine 

[Ootohere]

The Members thread i posted in the my last post is because of a Known Issue they rejected a warranty claim.

 

Known issue to VW, Skoda, Audi,Seat.   Get the name of that Dealership Employee that told you 1 litre in 1,000 miles oil use was OK.

 

An action should have been taken at that time because of excessive oil use.

 

The one burnt out plug has caused so many failures of CAVE and CTHE engines, & burnt out valves,

even replacement engines have been replaced.

One member has had 3 engines in the car, all replaced by warranty.

 

That is a whole other thread i can bump.       Fight it with Skoda UK.  

Edited 26 January, 2019 by Skoffski

[Ootohere]

It is crazy just how many CTHE have issues and more coming all the time.  Same issues.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/426905-2013-vrs-dead-any-advice

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/340296-fabia-vrs-engine-failed-loss-of-compression-cyl-2

It is not as though Skoda / VW did not know the issues early enough with the CTHE but never changed the Manufacturers Guidelines / Recommendations / Schedule on Spark Plugs, or issued a TPI to Technicians.

 

Edited 27 January, 2019 by Skoffski

[Sittingbull]

10 hours ago, Skoffski said:

It is crazy just how many CTHE have issues and more coming all the time.  Same issues.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/426905-2013-vrs-dead-any-advice

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/340296-fabia-vrs-engine-failed-loss-of-compression-cyl-2

It is not as though Skoda / VW did not know the issues early enough with the CTHE but never changed the Manufacturers Guidelines / Recommendations / Schedule on Spark Plugs, or issued a TPI to Technicians.

 

 

Offski it's getting scarier by the moment as regards engines developing well recognised problems, both CAVE and CTHE. One look through the mk2 vRS Owners page on Facebook backs this up, with so many coming forward with spark plug issues, misfiring issues, compression issues and at the forefront, oil consumption issues.

 

Now there is no doubt that some of those now seeking help and guidance on next steps are perhaps third, fourth or more in the ownership line of the vehicle, but all that tells me is that even for some of those who have fixes done in the past the problems seem to reappear down the line.

 

Tim is a bit different, he has owned since new I think and got full Skoda dealer service history. At one time that single factor would have been the difference between Skoda Goodwill and none, provided the car hadn't been remapped of course. Countless owners on here can testify to that.

 

In Tim's case it looks like he has been badly let down by the complacency or incompetency of the Skoda Dealership Service department, who have allowed oil consumption to go unchecked and indeed have trotted out the old Gordon the moron line that it's normal and acceptable for these cars to use a lot of oil. In my view their stance and advice has led Tim to do no more than trust that they knew what they were doing, and now that its been discovered that their advice and trust is meaningless, SUK are doing their usual and trying to back away. SEE NO EVIL, HEAR NO EVIL, SPEAK NO EVIL time again. It wasn't me m'lud, a big boy done it and ran away.

 

I'm with Offski on this, fight them hard on this.

 

Start with the basic facts of the case. One owner, bought from new, always serviced on time and at Skoda main dealership, entrusted to uphold the brand reputation by not only providing excellent service levels and quality but by providing advice that will promote the longevity of the vehicle and ensure a returning customer to the brand,

 

Don't take no for an answer. Refer them to the hundreds of other instances where oil consumption issues have been the cause of spark plug failure and compression loss, often leading to engine failure, and to the subsequent remedies sought by owners that were on hundreds of other occasions supported by Skoda UK up to and including the fitting of replacement engines, sometimes with a compensation payment in addition for the inconvenience suffered by the owner.

 

Don't accept arguments around age of the car, you have done all and more could be reasonably expected of an owner in terms of keeping the vehicle as the brand would have expected, other owners have had work done out of warranty and paid for by Skoda, not just on engines but also on DSG failures, or in some instances like ours a goodwill gesture has been made along the lines of a discount off the final bill and vouchers to cover servicing at another franchised dealer.

 

After all, when you're buying a car built within a premium corporation in the 21st century, using quality workmanship and materials you can surely expect the lifespan to go beyond 50 or 60k miles or 7 years or so. That;s not unreasonable expectation given you have complied fully with manufacturers servicing schedule.

 

You may have to make noises about Trading standards, Citizens Advice, DVSA, Watchdog and the motoring press.

 

Good luck.

[timlister2001]

52 minutes ago, Sittingbull said:

 

Offski it's getting scarier by the moment as regards engines developing well recognised problems, both CAVE and CTHE. One look through the mk2 vRS Owners page on Facebook backs this up, with so many coming forward with spark plug issues, misfiring issues, compression issues and at the forefront, oil consumption issues.

 

Now there is no doubt that some of those now seeking help and guidance on next steps are perhaps third, fourth or more in the ownership line of the vehicle, but all that tells me is that even for some of those who have fixes done in the past the problems seem to reappear down the line.

 

Tim is a bit different, he has owned since new I think and got full Skoda dealer service history. At one time that single factor would have been the difference between Skoda Goodwill and none, provided the car hadn't been remapped of course. Countless owners on here can testify to that.

 

In Tim's case it looks like he has been badly let down by the complacency or incompetency of the Skoda Dealership Service department, who have allowed oil consumption to go unchecked and indeed have trotted out the old Gordon the moron line that it's normal and acceptable for these cars to use a lot of oil. In my view their stance and advice has led Tim to do no more than trust that they knew what they were doing, and now that its been discovered that their advice and trust is meaningless, SUK are doing their usual and trying to back away. SEE NO EVIL, HEAR NO EVIL, SPEAK NO EVIL time again. It wasn't me m'lud, a big boy done it and ran away.

 

I'm with Offski on this, fight them hard on this.

 

Start with the basic facts of the case. One owner, bought from new, always serviced on time and at Skoda main dealership, entrusted to uphold the brand reputation by not only providing excellent service levels and quality but by providing advice that will promote the longevity of the vehicle and ensure a returning customer to the brand,

 

Don't take no for an answer. Refer them to the hundreds of other instances where oil consumption issues have been the cause of spark plug failure and compression loss, often leading to engine failure, and to the subsequent remedies sought by owners that were on hundreds of other occasions supported by Skoda UK up to and including the fitting of replacement engines, sometimes with a compensation payment in addition for the inconvenience suffered by the owner.

 

Don't accept arguments around age of the car, you have done all and more could be reasonably expected of an owner in terms of keeping the vehicle as the brand would have expected, other owners have had work done out of warranty and paid for by Skoda, not just on engines but also on DSG failures, or in some instances like ours a goodwill gesture has been made along the lines of a discount off the final bill and vouchers to cover servicing at another franchised dealer.

 

After all, when you're buying a car built within a premium corporation in the 21st century, using quality workmanship and materials you can surely expect the lifespan to go beyond 50 or 60k miles or 7 years or so. That;s not unreasonable expectation given you have complied fully with manufacturers servicing schedule.

 

You may have to make noises about Trading standards, Citizens Advice, DVSA, Watchdog and the motoring press.

 

Good luck.

 

Thank you for the reply. I’m apparently being updated by Skoda exec team tomorrow so I will keep you posted on what is said.

 

I’m going to speak to citizens advice regarding the issue and will research the others to see what/if anything can be done to force their hand.

 

 

[Ootohere]

A major issue now with 1.4 TSI / TFSI 132-136kw Twinchargers in the UK is.

 

As Skoda, VW, SEAT & Audi knock back owners with these knowns issues, people just get shot of bad ones to WBAC, Evans Halshaw etc. 

These bad ones are going around and around the trade because VW Group never acted and bought in and scrapped bad ones.

They even put 'rejected' cars back into trade without any actions taken.

 

Buyers beware.  

[Candy White]

I would agree with xman’s post. Before having your engine taken apart, ask the dealership to use a boroscope as this is what they did with my car and they found no damage so the dealership simply put new plugs in and the car ran fine again.The dealership also tested the ignition coils at the time as I was told that if they were faulty they could cause overheating/fuelling. As to getting anywhere with Skoda UK, it is a very slow and long process and for me it took over 12 months to get ‘some’of the issues sorted. Hopefully you have the same luck I had in that there is no lasting damage.

[Ootohere]

^^^ This is your thread.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/421161-vrs-spark-plug-tip-missing

 

Some like their labour charge for diagnostics and taking heads off before doing the straightforward when all 4 plugs are out...

Stealers.

 

Edited 27 January, 2019 by Skoffski

[timlister2001]

14 hours ago, Candy White said:

I would agree with xman’s post. Before having your engine taken apart, ask the dealership to use a boroscope as this is what they did with my car and they found no damage so the dealership simply put new plugs in and the car ran fine again.The dealership also tested the ignition coils at the time as I was told that if they were faulty they could cause overheating/fuelling. As to getting anywhere with Skoda UK, it is a very slow and long process and for me it took over 12 months to get ‘some’of the issues sorted. Hopefully you have the same luck I had in that there is no lasting damage.

 

I presume there is damage as the AA put new NGK plugs in and misfire was still present.

[Ootohere]

Best not presume.  Assumption is the mother of all F***ck-ups, and why so many vRS engines are given a 'Time of Death' when actually just some loving care is required.

 

The Overheating Spark Plug and cylinder can mean the premature death of an Ignition Coil. 

So the valves need checked as well.  But Borescope in each cylinder for starters. 

 

No presumptions, because the Tech or Master Tech should have been through this plenty of times before.

& a AA or RAC First Responder should know the story as well.  The Fault Codes should have been saved. 

[Ootohere]

Any update?

[SeaGoat]

Am I correct in understanding that you ran for some 37k miles on the original set of plugs and then had a failure on cylinder 3 after 23k miles with replacement NGKs?

 

I have done about 50k miles and have had the plugs changed once in that time - for Densos.

 

Sadly my water pump failed a while back and getting that replaced cost a fortune.
When I booked in my car for the water pump I specifically asked for all parts removed to be placed in the boot - they weren't and when I complained I was told that they had forgotten!

To be honest, I believe that these cars are somewhat "fussy" but that would be much less of a problem if the workshop mechanics were competent and the service desk staff were less complacent.

[Sittingbull]

On 30/01/2019 at 23:30, SeaGoat said:

Am I correct in understanding that you ran for some 37k miles on the original set of plugs and then had a failure on cylinder 3 after 23k miles with replacement NGKs?

 

I have done about 50k miles and have had the plugs changed once in that time - for Densos.

 

Sadly my water pump failed a while back and getting that replaced cost a fortune.
When I booked in my car for the water pump I specifically asked for all parts removed to be placed in the boot - they weren't and when I complained I was told that they had forgotten!

To be honest, I believe that these cars are somewhat "fussy" but that would be much less of a problem if the workshop mechanics were competent and the service desk staff were less complacent.

 

Seagoat, far be it for me to try to preach, but there's no way I'm leaving spark plugs in for that kind of mileage, ours and many other owners are getting changed every 8 to 10 thousand miles. I changed to Denso plugs and mahle oil filter along with vw 5w40 oil a few years ago on the recommendation of offski and others, but still change them annually as our mileage is around 8 to 10 in a year. We even supplied the stuff to the techs at Ingrams for them to use, which they did with no fuss.

 

I agree that these are engines that are almost too fussy, feels as if walking on eggshells at times being an owner.

[timlister2001]

Apologies for the late update- 

 

Skoda paid for the head removal and further diagnostics. No further damaged found so a rebuild was authorised with a list of new parts (3 pages). Total cost came to just shy of 3k which reluctantly I paid £340 towards. Free service also thrown in. Still no answers to how and why it happenend. 

 

I will now see how the car behaves but have some piece of mind that there is warranty against the work.

 

 

[xman]

So they took the head off and found no damage?

 

On 26/01/2019 at 15:36, timlister2001 said:

Following day the car was booked into Skoda Aylesbury. Diagnostic was broken down spark plug (pic attached) and cylinder damage. Garage have stated £660 to remove head to see what further damage has occurred and recommend a full new engine at a cost of £5700. When I challenged back and ask why the plug had failed in this way they stated they did not know and have never seen this happen before. So i'm suppose to pay for a new engine on a 6 year old car when you can't even tell me why its happened??

 

I registered a formal complaint with Skoda Uk (executives office) who are currently investigating the matter however they have relayed the same that they will not know whats caused it and it is highly likely i will have to pay for the engine as the car is out of warranty.

 

 

If no damage was found, then Skoda Aylesbury were incompetent, deceitful and misled you in an attempt to obtain money by false pretenses. Was there cylinder damage? How was that repaired? New liner/piston/rings?

 

Edited 19 February, 2019 by xman