Clutch

[Citigo1982]

Hello - we bought out Citigo new last summer (first Skoda, but my parents are 30+ years into Skoda ownership). It's great but both my partner and I have a problem with the clutch when it comes to putting it into our garage.

 

We find that at least 50% of the time we put the car away in the garage we get a strong burning smell from the clutch and often a lot of juddering. We've both been driving for 20 years and this never happened with our previous (much older) Fiat Panda. It's got to the stage where we are both a bit paranoid!

 

I understand that new cars often raise the revs when the clutch nears the biting point so wonder if I should not be touching the accelerator at all - but I was taught that it was bad to creep the car on the clutch on the flat, let alone up hill (our drive way has a slight uphill slope, enough for the hill hold to work). Having been driving a long time it is hard to disentangle exactly what I am doing, but I normally use the handbrake, start to lift the clutch, down on the accelerator and release handbrake all at the same time. 

 

I don't have any problems with hill starts normally, but the challenge here is that the drive is only the length of the car meaning that there is not much room to get lined up with the garage opening. Also I don't want to build up a lot of speed as the garage is not that long. I have tried the hill hold, and the handbrake, and find it makes no difference. In fact I am less happy with the hill hold as I find the car rolls back slightly before going forward.

 

Any thoughts from those more used to this car would be welcome - thank you! It is the only thing which I can't get used to, and if I can't make it work I suspect I will wear out the clutch before long.

 

 

 

[freemansteve]

Is it not under warranty? What does the dealer have to say?

 

Anyway, there should not be a burning smell or judder. Yes, you can make a clutch smell by slipping it too much but I think you are an experienced driver and know how to use a clutch. Juddering may be a consequence of a very over-heated clutch.

 

The hill-start feature holds the car for half a second, so there is no time to dither. I think it only works if the car has been held using the brakes immediately before. Nice feature - works well for me....

 

And no, it is not the case that cars raise revs by themselves as the clutch is about to bite; that's down to the driver!

[Citigo1982]

Thanks, this is helpful. Car was brand new in July and now has 2700 on the clock, so it is under warranty and I think I will try the dealer...

 

i am sure they will say I just need to get used to it, but we will see. I live in Scotland so am quite used to hill starts and have never had an issue before this car!

[freemansteve]

Pretty much like my car, except I'm near Penzance, so lots of sharp hill starts here too! But my clutch is sweet.

 

The problem is going to be in demonstrating the problem to the dealer.....

 

Does the clutch slip (engine revs increase) when you floor the throttle say on 4th, up a bit of a hill? That would mean the clutch is not engaging properly or worn out. I assume you don't ride the clutch when driving. You may need to find a hill near the dealer to show it judders, and /or smells  and let their 'tech' try it.

 

 

Edited 15 February, 2020 by freemansteve

[Citigo1982]

Thanks - this is good info. I haven’t noticed anything untoward in higher gears but I will check. Will try to get it to the dealer later this week...

[KenONeill]

On 14/02/2020 at 18:00, Citigo1982 said:

it was bad to creep the car on the clutch on the flat,

Why? I've got a (diesel) car out of a wet muddy field by being very gentle with the clutch at idle in first, when other people were getting stuck all around me.

 

From what you say, you may need some revs because of your driveway: My point is that "you must rev the engine every time" sounds like a bad rule.

[Citigo1982]

11 hours ago, KenONeill said:

Why? I've got a (diesel) car out of a wet muddy field by being very gentle with the clutch at idle in first, when other people were getting stuck all around me.

 

From what you say, you may need some revs because of your driveway: My point is that "you must rev the engine every time" sounds like a bad rule.

 

Thanks Ken. Now booked into the garage for Thursday. No doubt they will say there is no fault with the car! Your point re bad rule noted....

[silver1011]

If you ride the clutch for prolonged periods then yes it'll smell and slip (judder).

 

Between setting off and finishing the manoeuvre, how long does it take? Are we talking 30 seconds or several minutes?

 

Are you depressing the clutch throughout the entire manouve, or are there periods where the clutch is completely released?

 

If the clutch is being partially depressed as you creep up the drive and into the garage, with varying levels of engine speeds over several minutes then I would expect the clutch to start smelling.

[silver1011]

On 15/02/2020 at 10:16, freemansteve said:

And no, it is not the case that cars raise revs by themselves as the clutch is about to bite; that's down to the driver!

 

Some cars, especially those with small petrol engines have an anti-stall feature, which does indeed increase the engine speed as the clutch is released. 

[freemansteve]

I'm sure every modern car has an electronically stabilized idle speed, but please go right ahead and name a car that actually raises revs as the clutch is released!

 

Stable idle does help you trundle along, to some extent, when the clutch is engaged, but I think we are talking about an entirely different idea here...

 

[J.R.]

2 hours ago, silver1011 said:

 

If the clutch is being partially depressed as you creep up the drive and into the garage, with varying levels of engine speeds over several minutes then I would expect the clutch to start smelling.

 

Especially in the confines of a small garage.

 

Not accusing the OP of this but we have all seen some inexperienced or elderly drivers that creep along slipping the clutch with very high revs when manoeuvring, some may not be capable of modulating both pedals at once, others may be hard of hearing or both.

 

Clutch linings have had a horrible sickly smell since asbestos was removed from the formulation

[silver1011]

2 hours ago, freemansteve said:

I'm sure every modern car has an electronically stabilized idle speed, but please go right ahead and name a car that actually raises revs as the clutch is released!

 

You're describing one and the same thing. Stabilising the idle speed is in effect raising it.

 

As the revs start to drop as you transition through the friction point of the clutch, the ECU will increase the revs so the engine doesn't stall.

 

This has been around for many years and is fitted to almost all modern cars.

 

Edited 17 February, 2020 by silver1011

[KenONeill]

10 hours ago, J.R. said:

some inexperienced or elderly drivers that creep along slipping the clutch with very high revs

Absol{censored}utely - The worst case being one old lady who held about 4_000rpm in first until the clutch was fully engaged; then changed into second and slipped the clutch more!!

[Citigo1982]

Thanks all - lots to think about here.

 

re. raising the revs, I was aware of this because the newer small Fiats do it. Our Panda was too old for this feature, but Watchdog memorably looked at what Fiat had done a few years ago, and there is a modification to stop the revs rising at the biting point (https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-iii/454061-fiat-panda-clutch-switch-euro6.html).  

 

What all this discussion has usefully confirmed is that there isn't some kind of peculiar knack needed for the Citigo. I had wondered if my technique wasn't quite right for a new car, having learned in the 1990s before all this tech became commonplace and having come from an old Panda (an early 2000s design with an engine dating back to the 80s). The Panda had a lot of low-end torque - it could start on the flat in 3rd (just) and 2nd (no problem). I had expected having to adjust to the Citigo, but seven months and 3000 miles on it seems that something isn't right.

 

We are still having problems, especially (but not only) with uphill starts. Yesterday, juddering and a burning smell when pulling onto a roundabout (me driving). Today, it smelled of burning three times on a 10 mile run when pulling away from junctions (partner driving).

 

I will report back once the garage has taken a look. 

[Emil]

Should not be like that. Some burning smell is acceptable if it is brand new. But clutch should be soon settled in. If and when you do not rev it too much. Less than 2000rpm is more than enough. 

[freemansteve]

20 hours ago, silver1011 said:

 

You're describing one and the same thing. Stabilising the idle speed is in effect raising it.

 

 

 

Ah. A retreat. In fact you are actually admitting the revs stay constant and don't increase "as the clutch is released"! .... "in effect"?  get a grip!
But still, name the car where you can see the rev counter move up as a consequence solely of the clutch pedal being releasing....   Yeah, thought not!

Call it quits if you agree you did not put it very well?

 

I'm mostly keen to see what the OP says about his dealer visit and getting his problem resolved.....

 

 

Edited 18 February, 2020 by freemansteve

[Blackcountryman]

If the car has hill start facility,and you have never used it before,why not get one of the sales staff to assist you with a demo on how it should be used.An acrid smell ,to me suggests that the clutch disc is already burnt out.... Some change in driving style may be needed to overcome the problem.Hand book states vehicle brakes are held on for two seconds max if the gradient the car is on ,is more than 5%..........

[silver1011]

19 minutes ago, freemansteve said:

 

 

Ah. A retreat. In fact you are actually admitting the revs stay constant and don't increase "as the clutch is released"! .... "in effect"?  get a grip!
But still, name the car where you can see the rev counter move up as a consequence solely of the clutch pedal being releasing....   Yeah, thought not!

Call it quits if you agree you did not put it very well?

 

I'm mostly keen to see what the OP says about his dealer visit and getting his problem resolved.....

 

 

 

Pedantic, but if it makes you feel better...

 

You're describing one and the same thing. Stabilising the idle speed is raising it.

 

In order to maintain or stabilise the engine speed it has to be increased.

 

Who said anything about the rev counter moving up as the clutch pedal is released? Engine speed is increased to prevent the rev counter dropping and the engine stalling.

 

It really isn't rocket science. As for naming a car with anti-stall fitted, try every single petrol engined car designed in the last decade that is on sale in the UK today.

[silver1011]

3 hours ago, Citigo1982 said:

We are still having problems, especially (but not only) with uphill starts. Yesterday, juddering and a burning smell when pulling onto a roundabout (me driving). Today, it smelled of burning three times on a 10 mile run when pulling away from junctions (partner driving).

 

I will report back once the garage has taken a look. 

 

Juddering when pulling onto a roundabout is not normal.

 

See if you can get a passenger to capture the issue on a mobile phone. Trying to claim for clutch and flywheel issues under warranty can be a real struggle as it is very easy for Skoda UK to blame wear and tear.

 

These complaints often end in stalemate, unless the owner is willing to have the car inspected independently and in extreme cases taking legal advice.

[KenONeill]

13 hours ago, silver1011 said:

 

Pedantic, but if it makes you feel better...

 

You're describing one and the same thing. Stabilising the idle speed is raising it.

 

In order to maintain or stabilise the engine speed it has to be increased.

 

Who said anything about the rev counter moving up as the clutch pedal is released? Engine speed is increased to prevent the rev counter dropping and the engine stalling.

 

It really isn't rocket science. As for naming a car with anti-stall fitted, try every single petrol engined car designed in the last decade that is on sale in the UK today.

You did, and you've just done it again.

[silver1011]

On 17/02/2020 at 23:03, silver1011 said:

 

You're describing one and the same thing. Stabilising the idle speed is in effect raising it.

 

As the revs start to drop as you transition through the friction point of the clutch, the ECU will increase the revs so the engine doesn't stall.

 

This has been around for many years and is fitted to almost all modern cars.

 

 

No I didn't. Here is my original post.

[J.R.]

Idle stabilisation is not a difficult concept to understand, the first car I had it on was a 1980 VW Scirrocco.

 

Perhaps the two of you are getting hung up on words, this is my way of explaining it to a layman, feel free to disagree.

 

If the vehicles idle speed is 800rpm and a loading on the engine causes it to drop beneath this, be it clutch engagement, aircon, or even just the normal hunting at idle perhaps exacerbated by a manifold air leak, then either the ignition timing is advanced (old school) or the idle by pass valve is opened to bring the revs up to the default 800rpm.

 

The system will not raise the revs above that 800rpm other than the initial overshoot and hysterisis, however it may increase the default idle speed to say 950rpm while the engine is cold, aircon engaged or a regen being carried out.

 

It will not try to "increase" the idle speed above the default 800 rpm in response to the clutch being engaged but it will try to "maintain" that idle speed.

 

I may have read that some of the lower powered vehicles like the Fiats that were on BBC Watchdog may have been reprogrammed to raise the idle RPM on hillstarts.

 

Finally I had a 1990 Diesel Escort that had a vacuum actuator that would raise the idle speed when reverse was selected, it bugged me and seemed stupid so I disabled it but then the car had a terrible judder in reverse unless increased revs were used, a horrible Ford bodge to overcome a failing on a horrible powertrain.

[Citigo1982]

OK, so back from the garage. The mechanic took it round the block a few times with me, and did a few hill starts. No smell and no judder. Apparently the clutch action also feels completely as one would expect of a Citigo. The car was fine for me going to and from the dealer, although it was slightly whiffy when I put it back in my own garage.

 

The dealer was understanding and has offered, if I still get problems, to take it back for a longer period to try to recreate the issue. I did explain that most of the 3000 miles I've done have been on the motorway (so not lots of stop/start short trips in town), and that I don't hold the car on the clutch. I also pointed out that I have never had a clutch problem in the 20+ years I have been driving!

 

I guess I will have to wait and see. Maybe it is just one of those things about the car, although if so it could be quite an expensive thing!

 

Thanks to all here for thoughts and advice

 

 

[Blackcountryman]

A lot of comments and bitching on here from people who seem to know everthing about everything............

I own a 2019 spec Citigo. I have noticed that if you are a bit quick taking up the drive,you beat the hill start  facility ,and there is a brake "grab"  and graunching noise (brakes holding on) momentarily  ,before moving off.There is no clutch smell ,but my use of the accelerator is moderate until clutch is fully engaged ,and foot is off the pedal.

Glad the dealer gave a demo drive........

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 February, 2020 by Blackcountryman

[snapseller]

Well, when I was learning to fly in the 1950s (courtesy of Her Maj.) almost the first thing the instructor said to me when taxiing out for my first flight was 'never have the throttle open with the brakes on', & 'listen to what the plane is telling you'. I have found these equally applicable to car driving, I did not get a car licence for a few years after this - had a PPL first. Hope this may of some help?