Hi all, I have just ordered a Karoq Sportline 1.5 DSG. This car has already been built and is on the way to the dealer so I cannot specify any options.

 

I will need to tow a small trailer (for a motorcycle.) so I would like to know what options I have. The car hasn’t had the tow bar prep option from factory.

 

can the dealer retro fit the electric tow bar and if so at what cost?

 

is there a reputable third party option available which will allow full operation of sensors etc?

 

Many thanks

There are a number of other threads on towbars

 

Model year 21 cars have a very complicated locked electrical system so retro fitting and doing the coding properly is only possible at specialists.  This limited supply also means isn’t that cheap. Some people have ended up with lot of hassle getting the unlocking codes and ended up paying more than factory option. Fully fitted and coded is likely to be £500+ but full retractable one might be nearer £800

 

Rather a shame your dealer found you a car without tow bar prep, unless you were in a hurry would have been better if they could have ordered one from factory, or updated one of their orders for stock that is already in factory queue (but not yet at locked options stage).   
 

I would talk to your dealer to see if they can add the tow bar, they might subcontract it to a specialist anyway

From the numbers of similar queries (and a rather unscientific test where I once looked in local car park and found about 14% or 1 in 7 of cars had towbars), I do wonder why so few seem to have towbar prep.

 

 

 

Edited 19 March, 20215 yr by SurreyJohn

10 hours ago, Passiva said:

can the dealer retro fit the electric tow bar and if so at what cost?

 

is there a reputable third party option available which will allow full operation of sensors etc?

 

 

.

For what it's worth, the first thing I'd do is ring PF Jones and ask them. The last thing I'd do is entrust this to a dealership without speaking to PF Jones first.

 

The likelihood is that they will indeed sub this job out to the towbar fitter round the back of the industrial estate, and they will almost certainly add a little something to the bill for their trouble.

 

I can't help thinking, with all due respect, that the prices suggested above may be a little on the light side - in my experience the cost of a dealer-fit (actually dealer-fitted and not sent round the corner to Towbars'R'Us) is likely to run into four figures rather than three.

 

Labour rates at well in excess of a hundred notes an hour soon add up.

.

 

 

Phutters is correct, I had a quote 2 years ago for fitting a tow bar to my 1.5SEL from the local main dealer it was nearly  £1000.   The main dealer assumed that it was for towing a caravan and the standard package included a retractable tow bar.

Speaking with PF Jones they asked if the tow bar was for a caravan or just a small trailer as the cost differential  is substantial, their quote then was around £400 for the simpler tow bar.

Do not be tempted to take the car to a back street tow bar fitter, they are unlikely to have the necessary gear to alter the ECU coding and the job could end up a disaster.

As Phutter says some main dealers  just ship the job to a sub contractor and add a rake off, The Newcastle main agent does this but the Carlisle main dealer does it in house.

If you fit towbar it should be fit to tow anything up to the maximum capacity as you never know what someone may hook up in the future?

 

I used to tow sailing boats most weekends and had a large capacity goods trailer for diy use but stopped fitting tow bars in 2010 when I had my first Yeti. Up to then a towbar complete was around £150, it jumped to £800 or more due to the complexity of wiring to current cars. Just not worth paying that much every 3 years or so.

 

Conversely my current car came out of dealer stock and has the 190ps engine. Dealer expects those getting that engine will do it to tow so it has towbar prep which I don’t need!

Edited 19 March, 20215 yr by kenfowler3966

Hmm

Makes the factory fit option of £885 seem a reasonable spend.

43 minutes ago, vegit8 said:

Hmm

Makes the factory fit option of £885 seem a reasonable spend.

.

It does, doesn't it?

 

And not least because the blokes who fit it won't be going anywhere near a Scotchlok.

 

.

Edited 19 March, 20215 yr by Phutters

1 hour ago, kenfowler3966 said:

 

 

I used to tow sailing boats most weekends and had a large capacity goods trailer for diy use but stopped fitting tow bars in 2010 when I had my first Yeti. Up to then a towbar complete was around £150, it jumped to £800 or more due to the complexity of wiring to current cars. Just not worth paying that much every 3 years or so.

 

 

My Yeti towbar was £105 and £20 something for the wiring kit, I presume at £150 you were DIY'ing, you can still do so if you are minded to.

No, a professional fit to a 2005 Skoda superb, probably with scotchlock though, which was ok at the time for that car.

 

Your Yeti kit will not have connected to the electrics correctly and it also needs to be programmed in so couldn't be done safely for that cost.

Car needs to know it has a trailer attached for the safety stability and braking systems to work correctly. Not practical for most to diy fit now. I have fitted several towbars over the years. I think I did one on a Polo many years ago for under £50. I would not risk it now.

A good price you had back then! Towbars used to cost me £35 but once they had to have EU testing and certification the price went up considerably.

 

My Yeti is no less safe than any of my previous cars that I have fitted towbars to, no less safe than your 2005 Superb was, in fact its considerably safer than any of my previous towing rigs, could it be safer? Probably under some theoretical conditions that as a responsable driver with 45 years towing experience I wont be experiencing through my own actions, am I bothered that the trailer dose not show up on the radio display? It never would have done with the radio that my vehicle came with.

 

I completely respect your decision to say you choose not to fit a towbar any more, it will come to all of us one day but to say "no longer take the risk"? - Do you consider you were taking a risk when you fitted your previous towbars?

 

My UK neighbour has been fitting towbars & towing for a decade longer than me took the same decision as you for his Octavia MK3, he was scared to death with the tales of Canbus which really meant he did not understand it, he paid for a profesional to fit his and i suffered problems which they were either incapable or unwilling to resolve, he would not let me near it for fear of the Canbus being disturbed, it was only after getting VCDS that I realised I had had canbus for 13 years on my MK1 Octavia and never even realised, when I had to sort out the mess of the professionally fitted towbar on my MK2 Octavia (previous owner had it done) I then knew enough to persuade him to let me sort out his professional scotchlok & twisted wire bodge up and to show him that he actually had a bypass relay no different to the ones that he had been fitting for decades except that it was far better constructed, only took milli-amps from the bulb circuits and had a far superior sensing mechanism for the audible warning that the trailer indicators were working.

6 hours ago, Phutters said:

.I can't help thinking, with all due respect, that the prices suggested above may be a little on the light side - in my experience the cost of a dealer-fit (actually dealer-fitted and not sent round the corner to Towbars'R'Us) is likely to run into four figures rather than three.

 

Labour rates at well in excess of a hundred notes an hour soon add up.

.

 

 

 

£600 for the towbar and dedicated 7 pin electrics which our local Škoda dealership, West End Garage, Dunfermline, had fitted to my wife's new Karoq 190 TDI in October 2019.  In Februarly 2020, I paid c. £500 for a local towbar company to fit the same to my Yeti. 

I believe that the "dedicated" electrics if they use a 7 pin socket are no more than a modern low sensing current bypass relay as I have fitted, perhaps someone will correct me but after resaerching all the wiring diagrams it is my understanding that two of the extra terminals in the 13 pin socket are used to sense when a trailer plug is fitted on the proper VAG or Westfalia dedicated electrical set up which communicates with the vehicle systems when coded in. A 7 pin socket cannot do this.

 

My neighbour was certainly sold his installation as being "dedicated" and integrated but it was nothing of the sort, he paid a kings ransom for it and deserved better.

Edited 19 March, 20215 yr by J.R.

37 minutes ago, Schtum said:

 

£600 for the towbar and dedicated 7 pin electrics which our local Škoda dealership, West End Garage, Dunfermline, had fitted to my wife's new Karoq 190 TDI in October 2019.  In Februarly 2020, I paid c. £500 for a local towbar company to fit the same to my Yeti. 

.

I apologise. It was too sweeping. I should have been more specific.

 

What I should have said was that I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of a retractable tow bar retrofit (like the factory job) runs to four figures.

 

I base that on a couple of quotes from two separate franchises a month or two ago.

 

My own experience of quote-massaging relates to when I got a straightforward removable tow bar ((no fancy dan canbus gubbins) fitted to an Audi allroad a few years back.

 

I saved north of two hundred notes by going directly to the tow bar fitters that the dealership used themselves. Two hundred quid for an invoice on a bit of proper Audi paper and having one of their 'technicians' drive it a couple of miles each way to the fitter's gaff and back?

 

Now that's taking the mickey.

 

And it's a not infrequent occurrence.

 

.

 

Edited 19 March, 20215 yr by Phutters

As others say above - give P F Jones a call to see what they say.  Or do you have a local specialist you can talk to?  I'd cut out going to the dealer, all they'll do is sub-contract it and add their wedge on top.  I've no problem with that, it makes no sense to train someone up for very little work.  Dealers just aren't set up for fitting towbars, they only get asked for a handful and won't have the expertise, whereas a specialist will keep up to date on every make.  Maybe ask who your dealer uses?  Any repuitable dealer will tell you - mine did for my previous Octavia.

 

You will be looking at around £700/800 for a removable one - Westfalia are among the best. But I don't think you'll get an electrically retracting one except factory fitted. 

 

You need to find out about upratingthe cooling system/alternator etc - the Kamiq factory prep does this, but the Skoda website doesn't say what the prep for the karoq involves.  Yet again, a specialist can advise.

46 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I believe that the "dedicated" electrics if they use a 7 pin socket are no more than a modern low sensing current bypass relay as I have fitted, perhaps someone will correct me but after resaerching all the wiring diagrams it is my understanding that two of the extra terminals in the 13 pin socket are used to sense when a trailer plug is fitted on the proper VAG or Westfalia dedicated electrical set up which communicates with the vehicle systems when coded in. A 7 pin socket cannot do this.

 

My neighbour was certainly sold his installation as being "dedicated" and integrated but it was nothing of the sort, he paid a kings ransom for it and deserved better.

 

It has to be coded for the car to recognise that there's a trailer fitted so that reversing sensors don't go off, the trailer icon appears on the head unit display, the alarm goes off if the trailer is unplugged and most importantly that the ASC knows that there's a trailer attached.  I found the last one out the hard way when we had a tow bar fitted with just a bypass relay to my wife's first VW Tiguan in 2011.  It ate the rear discs and pads in 30k miles; largely, I suspect, from towing a light 6 x 4 trailer across bumpy, twisty back roads in an enthusiastic fashion.  

 

The subsequent two Tiguans were both fitted with dedicated wiring kits and I was there while one of them was coded into the ECU with VCDS. 

28 minutes ago, FlyingGecko said:

You need to find out about uprating the cooling system/alternator etc - the Kamiq factory prep does this, but the Skoda website doesn't say what the prep for the karoq involves.  Yet again, a specialist can advise.

I had a tow bar fitted to a very early model Karoq that had tow bar prep (150bhp 2.0 diesel). This model needs cooling upgrades - new fan and modified (more open) grill. These cooling upgrades are part of tow bar prep but my supplying dealer didn't realise this. So total price including cooling mods was about £1300 followed by a £500 refund for the unnecessary work when I researched it with Skoda Customer services, and pointed out the error of their ways,

 

The issue to consider is whether you need cooling upgrades as a third party installer will almost certainly not do this. The OP appears to be getting a new model so he must consider the effect on his warranty if the tow bar is not fitted to Skoda spec. And I understand he only want to tow a light trailer, but this is irrelevant if Skoda are considering a warranty claim.

2 hours ago, Schtum said:

 

It has to be coded for the car to recognise that there's a trailer fitted so that reversing sensors don't go off, the trailer icon appears on the head unit display, the alarm goes off if the trailer is unplugged and most importantly that the ASC knows that there's a trailer attached.  

On a 7 pin towing socket? I would love to know how that works as it is what is stopping me from fitting a proper towing module. My Yeti does not have reversing sensors and had a basic head unit with simply a radio tuning display.

Quote

 

I found the last one out the hard way when we had a tow bar fitted with just a bypass relay to my wife's first VW Tiguan in 2011.  It ate the rear discs and pads in 30k miles; largely, I suspect, from towing a light 6 x 4 trailer across bumpy, twisty back roads in an enthusiastic fashion.  

 

The subsequent two Tiguans were both fitted with dedicated wiring kits and I was there while one of them was coded into the ECU with VCDS. 

 

7 or 13 pin electric socket?

 

Do you believe that if you had a proper dedicated and coded towbar installation on the Tiguan that it would not have used the rear brakes when you were towing?

Edited 19 March, 20215 yr by J.R.

2 hours ago, JohnD5314 said:

I had a tow bar fitted to a very early model Karoq that had tow bar prep (150bhp 2.0 diesel). This model needs cooling upgrades - new fan and modified (more open) grill. These cooling upgrades are part of tow bar prep but my supplying dealer didn't realise this. So total price including cooling mods was about £1300 followed by a £500 refund for the unnecessary work when I researched it with Skoda Customer services, and pointed out the error of their ways,

 

The issue to consider is whether you need cooling upgrades as a third party installer will almost certainly not do this. The OP appears to be getting a new model so he must consider the effect on his warranty if the tow bar is not fitted to Skoda spec. And I understand he only want to tow a light trailer, but this is irrelevant if Skoda are considering a warranty claim.

 

Hi JohnD, I thought I'd replied to this but I seem to have missed the Submit button.  You're quite right, there's so much to consider.  I'd still consult at least one specialist though,  if only to see if they what they know (or don't). 

 

It's one big Pandora's box of worms, that's for sure.

 

 

(I have no connection  to P F Jones, just had a couple of quotes for different motors which I didn't follow up for unrelated reasons.) 

34 minutes ago, J.R. said:

On a 7 pin towing socket? I would love to know how that works as it is what is stopping me from fitting a proper towing module. My Yeti does not have reversing sensors and had a basic head unit with simply a radio tuning display.

 

7 or 13 pin electric socket?

 

Do you believe that if you had a proper dedicated and coded towbar installation on the Tiguan that it would not have used the rear brakes when you were towing?

 

The second Tiguan, the one where I was present when it was coded was a 7 pin.  The third one was 13 pin.  

 

I'm pretty sure that with dedicated electrics, the rear brakes wouldn't have been working overtime when the ASC thought the car was sliding around.  No such wear was experienced on the second or third Tiguans, even when towing a larger 8 x5 trailer. 

Did you get any visual confirmation on the second car that the vehicle had recognised a trailer was connected?

 

The only way that it could be achieved is to do without the foglamp connection (I never use foglamps on a trailer anyway) and use the extra contact (used to cut out the rear foglamps when towing) to drive a relay reversing the N/O to N/C and use that output for the towbar controller input.

 

I dont think any of the places that fit the proper kit would bodge around like me and remove the foglamp function from the towing electrics.

 

My belief is that a vehicle with a 7 pin towing socket cannot have the "dedicated" towing electrics where the vehicle electronics know that a trailer is being towed and change the vehicle stability systems, - unless someone can prove me wrong and explain how the trailer connection is detected, I really would like to know because it will be an interesting project for me and I will be able to see whther there really is any noticable difference.

ASC does not activate the rear brakes per sé, it will pulse the brakes on the inner side of the curve to counteract understeer and priveledge the front brake to effectively create a turning moment about the inner front wheel, having inwardly digested the VAG self study guide on ABS and electronic stability systems I dont think there are any that solicit the rear brakes.

 

If you use these vehicles in anger its the rear brakes that take the greater hammering.

9 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Did you get any visual confirmation on the second car that the vehicle had recognised a trailer was connected?

 

 

I thnk so but it's getting on for 5 years since we traded in that car.   We certainly do on both the current Karoq and Yeti, both fitted with 7 pin coded electrics. 

 

With respect to your comment about ASC, probably more commonly referred to as ESP now but I remember it as ASC from my old Mk5 Golf; what you describe is more akin to the function of XDS.  My understanding of ASC / ESP is that it provides a measure of yaw control via the car's brakes.  

In the self study guide there is a plethora of 3 letter acronyms, there is an amazing range of electronic aids that can be integrated using only the yaw sensors, wheel speed sensors and the ABS controller, a fascinating read if that your bag!

Edited 19 March, 20215 yr by J.R.

8 hours ago, J.R. said:

Did you get any visual confirmation on the second car that the vehicle had recognised a trailer was connected?

 

The only way that it could be achieved is to do without the foglamp connection (I never use foglamps on a trailer anyway) and use the extra contact (used to cut out the rear foglamps when towing) to drive a relay reversing the N/O to N/C and use that output for the towbar controller input.

 

I dont think any of the places that fit the proper kit would bodge around like me and remove the foglamp function from the towing electrics.

 

My belief is that a vehicle with a 7 pin towing socket cannot have the "dedicated" towing electrics where the vehicle electronics know that a trailer is being towed and change the vehicle stability systems, - unless someone can prove me wrong and explain how the trailer connection is detected, I really would like to know because it will be an interesting project for me and I will be able to see whther there really is any noticable difference.

 

Detection is feasible via a combination of Central Electrics (09) coding and indicator lighting circuit impedance decrease. On my Polos, a simple/single increment of the coding tells it to 'expect trailer addition sometimes'; then the decrease in impedance caused by the parallel trailer-board indicator bulb compared to its absence tells the electronics (in module 09) driving the indicators that there are more bulbs in circuit.  All the indicators are driven by a chip that has load current monitoring.

 

The detection is only used for the trailer indicator telltale in those cars, to the best of my knowledge; but could be used for other things I guess, once the addition is 'spotted' by the system. 

 

I knew for sure it was the impedance difference that was involved when I tried the LED lighting board for my boat trailer, and it failed to correctly illuminate the trailer indicator telltale on the dash. Some resistors to ground across those two LEDs to mimic 'real' bulbs in that lighting board solved this problem.

 

Edited 20 March, 20215 yr by Wino

Yes I had thought of that and also the problem with modern LED lamps, the El Cheapo trailer lights that i use (€1.45 each) still use bulbs and will probably always remain that way, they no longer come with bulbs which would equal the cost of the lamp unless you buy them by the box as I do.

 

Thay are crap and the slightest vibration or damp has them playing up, the trailer & caravan manufacturers have all moved to LED light units for reliability.

 

Every VAG & Westfalia dedicated wiring kit with a Trailer Module canbus node and coding instructions have a 13 min socket and not a 7 pin one hence my scepticism that those who have been relieved of lots of money are actually getting the supposed safety from the vehicle stability systems that they believe they are.

 

Your Polo with the additional coding would no longer be able to give a bulb warning if a brake light bulb was used instead of a rear light bul but it was a smart attempt at trailer detection.

 

The new high impedance bypass relays do a much better job of detecting when there is an indicator bulb connected and sounding the audible alarm than the older thermal type, one of those could be made with a "trailer connected" output when it detects a bulb or maybe even LED load on more than one or two of the lighting circuits, that could then be used as the input to a canbus trailer module.

 

I reckon within a couple of years there will be a cheap way for me to upgrade with a generic trailer module and bypass relay, perhaps both built into the same unit, all the vehicle systems need are to be coded to communicate with a trailer module and for that to tell them that a trailers electrics are connected.