MORE problems 2.0 TDi CFFB HELP! please

[bimma123]

Right guys

 

so after my last post...where i had starting issues after the car clonked out

 

i replaced the throttle body (anti shudder vave with a used item) and also rotated the egr inlet valve 180 degrees.

 

car been running fine ever since...started first time every time. no warning lights nothing at all for about 4/5 weeks roughly

 

until today....stopped at a zebra crossing to giveway. Car chocked/revs went down so i tried to rev it...no response and it clonked out

 

tried re starting it...just cranks nothing else

tried easy start...nothing ...almost started at one point but made a bit of a knocking noise and cut out straight away

 

called RAC out who eventually arrived 3 hrs later!! ...

he tied easy start too..nothing

he tried to remove the small metal pipe coming from the egr to the inlet whilst cranking it (said if the throttle was stuck closed that would get it running?

plugged in a diagnostic   nothing showing at all  

he tested the fuel pump under rear seat and i heard it come one buzzed so ruled that out

 

pulled cambelt cover off.cambelt was there intact but he said it was turning over a little fast ...but exact same symptoms as last time...only difference last time i got it started with easy start eventually 

 

he said it sounded like compression.....and said there was also another chain connecting the two cams on this engine and that could have gone?

 

or is it that the egr is stuck open again and he didnt know?  i sort of trusted his knowledge and went with what he said...i did say to him that the last time i broke down last september the RAC bloke said the egr was stuck open but he ruled it out dont know how

 

got car towed home now...looking for ideas to try before giving it to a garage

 

please any suggestions ,,,i really hope its not the engine cant afford to replace or rebuild....just not worth it 

[J.R.]

If its turning over too fast & will not start using Easi-start then it all points to cam timing slippage and probable valve damage.

 

A compression test would be the next logical step.

[chimaera]

Even before that, I'd try to turn it over by hand (ratchet on the crankshaft nut) and see if it can make 2 full rotations without getting stiff/stuck. If you do this with the timing belt cover removed you can check that both cams are turning as you turn the engine.

[bimma123]

thanks guys. up early so will give it a go in a bit and update 

 

chimaera...sorry for sounding dumb but to rotate it...clockwise right? and can i remove the cambelt cover easily without removing anything ?

 

yesterday i managed to pull it back by undoing the two clips i could see at the top and saw the belt was on there and managed to prod it with my finger just to make sure it was slack and wasnt the remains of the belt. Cambelt and water pump was done at 76k now on 133k miles

 

i will also attempt to make a temporary egr blank plate with a tin can or some thin metal and put it as shown in pic below because i have read if the egr is stuck open it wont start

 

can someone  tell me which pipe i remove to test fuel pressure on the left of engine where iv put a red mark please or is it not fuel related as it woud have started with easy start

 

thanks for advise again

[chimaera]

TBH you sound like you're a bit out of your depth here.

 

I'm not sure blanking off the EGR will help much. You can check with diagnostics if there's a fault there in any case.

 

There's a reasonable chance you're dealing with a timing failure here, and until you confirm whether that's the case or not, it's a bad idea to try starting it.

 

Please stay away from the fuel system if you don't know exactly what you're doing. The fuel rail reaches 2000 bar when starting and running. If fuel at this pressure hits you it will cut right through you.

 

If you can confirm that the timing is intact, and it's ok to try starting it, you'll know from the exhaust smell if fuel is getting through.

[lichfielddriver]

12 minutes ago, chimaera said:

TBH you sound like you're a bit out of your depth here.

 

I think modern cars, especially diesels, can have us all over

 

Sons mate has a Passat, the ECU failed, £2000 later it ran but the S/S wouldnt start, the dealers blamed the aftermarket tow bar electrics, so the installer visited VW (FOC) and installed the electrics to the new ECU, still no S/S.......... VW Germany tech connected to the car, couldnt find anything so VW had the car transported to Germany where it still sits.... its a 2011 Passat, owner has a new VW Tiguan courtesy car so isnt shouting the odds too much

[bimma123]

Right guys

 

quick update....

 

went out...made a d.i.y egr blank plate using a old coke can...cut rough shape using the gasket for the pipe as guide.made holes for screws. made 3 layers just to be safe/stronger

 

put it in place as marked above where that metal pipe meets engine

 

litte spray of easy start and it fired up. no knocking or anything, ran it on drive 5 mins or so. switched it off....and it started again off its own power...no easy start

 

so basicaly the RAC guy mis diagnosed it....seems to be the egr was stuck open...causing the exhaust cases to flow and low compression..

 

my question is.... can i drive car like this or not.  no engine light one (yet)

 

ran my cheap obd scanner p2100 code was on there but i think thats to do with the RAC guy manually testing the throttle sensor etc

 

so whats next...egr delete or someone mentioned on my thread last time that EGR simulator kit off ebay £120 odd quid..basically blank the egr off as i have and then plug in the simulator to make the car think the egr is working as normal

Edited 18 April, 2021 by bimma123

[chimaera]

Next step is find out exactly what the problem is. Get it scanned with a proper VAG compatible scan tool and see what that reports.

 

If it is indeed the EGR valve causing the problem, and you plan on keeping the car for another while, then replacement is the best option. Most of the replacement cost is labour so a good indy might be reasonable enough that way.

 

If the car hasn't yet had the 23R6 update (EA189 NOx emissions) and you can get it into a dealer without a fault code showing, then you could get it updated and get a free EGR replacement under the TBM when it does fail afterwards. A few owners here have done this. Mine started to fail in January, 2 weeks after my TBM period expired and Skoda Ireland still covered 90 % of the cost.

[bimma123]

It all points towards the EGR sticking open as someone replied to my one of my older threads saying the EGR stuck open would cause the car to cut out and not start

 

ive had the emissions recall done back in  may 2017 i think if thats the one you mean...i am not aware of any others

 

i am going out to brave driving it up and down my street couple of times and see what happens ..wish me luck lol  but i am leaning towards ordering that EGR similar that another member recommended which they used on their tiguan with the same cffb engine

[J.R.]

If you drive it with a blanking plate and no emulator/simulator it will go into limp mode and show a fault code something like Mass air flow sensor implausible reading, without the EGR gases more filtered air will be flowing into the engine than it would expect, thats what the emulator/simulator does, it detects when the EGR is being commanded by the ECU fiddles with the output from the mass airflow sensor to give the result the ECU expects.

 

If you can have the EGR replaced FOC then go ahead but be aware that they will also do the emissions fix if it has not been done and the car then may not be the same car that you have enjoyed driving all this time, the emulator/simulators are cheap, very easy to fit ad dont change anything other than stopping the intake tract & throttle valve from becoming gunged up.

 

Glad that you have found the problem.

[bimma123]

 

J.R cheers. yes i think i will be ordering that simulator

 

the cars aready had the emission fix recall work (no idea what they done to it)

 

so looks like this is my most cost effective option

 

i have drove it up and down the road a few times no engine light yet but im guessing it will appear soon so i wont be driving it far like this. hopefully the simulator arrives this week

[J.R.]

Maybe the guy has been really clever and it does nothing at all except part the gullible from their money

 

It looks well made though!

 

Maybe blocking the EGR pipe creates a fault code but no MIL light?

Edited 18 April, 2021 by J.R.

[bimma123]

you may be right, i will scan the car again to see if there is a fault code present...or maybe its programmed to come on after certain time/distance of driving with that fault...

 

either way i will be ordering that simulator as it seems to be the most cost effective fix and another forum member PipH has confirmed that they had same egr issues on a tiguan and this resolved it so tried and tested

[J.R.]

Possibly it wont go out of parameters except at higher revs.

 

In any case give it a try and do a scan for codes, maybe following the recieved wisdom cost me £99 for nothing

 

Thinking about it, we think your EGR valve was stuck open, maybe during your test drive you did not get to the conditions where the EGR valve would be commanded and the ECU would expect to see a drop in mass air flow, possibly engine not up to temperature?

 

[bimma123]

Ordered part yesterday off ebay £122 posted. Waiting for delivery

 

started car today, had a slight judder at one point but revs balanced out.

 

plugged it in and had the P0401 code with is EGR related but no engine light

On 18/04/2021 at 22:45, J.R. said:

Possibly it wont go out of parameters except at higher revs.

 

In any case give it a try and do a scan for codes, maybe following the recieved wisdom cost me £99 for nothing

 

Thinking about it, we think your EGR valve was stuck open, maybe during your test drive you did not get to the conditions where the EGR valve would be commanded and the ECU would expect to see a drop in mass air flow, possibly engine not up to temperature?

 

J.R when you say cost you £99 for nothing....have you tried this simulator and it didnt work for you? im covered by paypal for it worst case

[J.R.]

No it is working fine, the EGR is disconnected so cannot function but from your experience it seems that I may have been able to achieve that by blocking the pipe, everything I had read said that it would result in the engine going into limp mode but yours hasn't so far.

 

When I have time I will reconnect the original ECU connection to the MAF sensor i.e. stopping the emulator from changing the sensor output and see if the engine goes into limp mode.

Edited 20 April, 2021 by J.R.

[bimma123]

ok, i see, but i think surely it cant be as easy as blocking the egr pipe like i did (with a better plug lol), unplugging the EGR side and leaving it unplugged as the ECU would read something is missing and throw the light up straight away.  when my part arrives...i will unplug the EGR first...start the car as it is and see if it throws EML...  hopefully should arrive in the morning..

 

I have drove it up and down my street few times sunday. no light and not in limp mode but i think it will eventually come on

[chimaera]

Whether you get MIL and limp mode probably depends on the nature of the fault detected. Mine did both when it started to let go in January, codes were both related to the N18 valve (codes were 4891 & 4892).

[J.R.]

3 hours ago, bimma123 said:

ok, i see, but i think surely it cant be as easy as blocking the egr pipe like i did (with a better plug lol), unplugging the EGR side and leaving it unplugged as the ECU would read something is missing and throw the light up straight away.  when my part arrives...i will unplug the EGR first...start the car as it is and see if it throws EML...  hopefully should arrive in the morning..

 

I have drove it up and down my street few times sunday. no light and not in limp mode but i think it will eventually come on

 

With the emulator the EGR is umplugged but the ECU sees the emulator and thinks that it is still in circuit, when it commands the EGR it gets the expected  output from the potentiometer but from the emulator, the second thing it does is to falsify the MAF sensor output to show the expected drop in airflow.

 

If you have left the EGR connected and blocked the pipe and its not going into limp mode, if it doesn't do so on a proper fast run then for whatever reason you dont need the emulator and I may have wasted the money on mine if my engine were to have responded in the same way.

 

I dont usually blindly accept recieved wisdom and  was going to try what you did to prove that the emulator really was needed, however my experience on the much simpler PD engine with a blanking plate was that it went into limp mode and I had to drill a small hole in the blanking plate to let some EGR gases pass through, I ended up opening it progressively to around 4mm before the engine stopped going into limp mode.

 

I suspect on your brief test drives the EGR has not been commanded.

[bimma123]

J.R  yes that makes sense, you're probably right.  i just didnt want to carry on driving it, the engine light comes on /limp mode so dpf wont re gen and then get a dpf blockage which might not then clear it self if the car wont go into re gen mode so i played it safe by ordering that part

[J.R.]

You are a chicken just like me

 

I definitely feel more secure having it and were it to fail or were I to have problems that might be related to it then its very easy to disconnect it and reconnect the original loom connectors. But my EGR had not failed, it was a pre-emptive measure and I have not fitted the blanking plate, reverting to stock should not cause me any problems.

 

I can see that the DPF is getting less ash build up from the measured values but unfortunately it appears that the regens are triggered by the estimated value and so are as frequent as they ever were, I dont like the extra fuel that is consumed or the heat generated, I am also concerned that the estimated oil ash residue is rising faster than it really is because the ECU believes that the EGR is being solicited frequently and that the ECU will decide I need a new DPF when the measured differential pressure is still well within limits.

[bimma123]

Yep...id rather be safe than sorry too lol

well it arrived today and just fitted it. quite easy to do 1) remove the engine cover 2) undo the clamp on the big air pipe. undo the jubilee clip on the air pipe (turbo end) and remove it. the Little breather pipe was a bit tricky to get off by squeezing the clip and i ended up breaking the clip when i pulled it off lol but it should still hold? (pic attached)

i used a torch and long screw driver to see the plug for the egr connector  it was covered in dirt and i couldnt find it at first but picture shows it in red circle 

 

once it was removed it was easy to connect the simulator..1) plug into the EGR connector (leaving the egr disconnected of course) 1 plug of the simulator into the MAF and the other into the car ECU connector for the MAF and re fit pipes etc

 

re scanned codes and nothing present so i will drive it today to work in a bit hopefully makes it lol and update after a couple days

EMU 11 EN (1).pdf